Pettitte to the Yanks? Eh.

Andy Pettitte had an awfully nice run as a Yankee, no doubt, and that run coincided—not coincidentally—with the Yanks' championship run of the 90s. That's left a lot of positive feeling here in NY, and many fans anxious that his return might also mean a return to the glory days. I'm not so sure. His 4.2 NL era and history of elbow trouble is cause for concern. On the otherhand, the Yanks could use a lefty who has thrown 200-plus innings in the Majors over the past two years. And if he does go down, well, the minors are stocked. Stocked, perhaps, to the point that they can provide at very little cost the production that Pettitte will provide at a premium. With so many good arms on the rise, this is no time to clog up the rotation. And, frankly, Andy Pettitte has never been a favorite as a personality. He's a gamer, sure, but his proselytizing for his fundamentalist views is, to me anyway, unseemly. More pertinently, he never evinced much love for NY, and he still doesn't—he's a good old country boy from Texas. When he was on the team, he lived in the burbs out in Westchester. (Or was it Jersey?) Of course there's nothing wrong with living in the 'burbs, but it's nice to have so many of our current players calling the 5 boroughs home. If you're not going to enjoy what this area has to offer, why move here? This is the greatest city in the world, right? Take it or leave it.

Comments

[SF]

Living in the five boroughs, while almost incomparably enriching, isn't for everyone. Who is to say that Pettitte (or anyone else) and his family shouldn't be able to live in Westchester, and enjoy what it has to give? "Enjoying what this area has to offer"? Come on - even people who move to NYC for lesser-paying jobs or those who grew up and still live in the city don't hit the Museum of Natural History every Sunday with their kids, or spend Sunday mornings picking up lox at Russ and Daughters. This comes off as just a bit apple-centric, YF. For the record, the commute from Larchmont to the MoNH is almost the same as it is from Park Slope, time-wise.

And as for his "proselytizing", I find that kind of stuff distasteful as well, but Pettitte never struck me as the loudmouthed type who caused problems with his religiosity. The Sox' clubhouse is notoriously filled with born-agains, and vocal ones at that. I would never say that I enjoy this part sports or society (I don't, at all), but it comes with the territory of professional sports at this point: most clubhouses have several guys who advertise their beliefs. This being the case, that person might as well be one who can handle New York, is a winner, and fills a need, right? I think your reservations about Pettitte are reasonable, but I also think you are being a little tough on some of the things that he was given something of a pass for earlier in his career when he was with the Yankees originally.

[Brad]

With so many good arms on the rise, this is no time to clog up the rotation...

I don't know - when was the last time a team used a handful of rookies and was successful to the point of meeting expectations in New York or Boston? I know Boston tried last year, and albeit the guys showed glimpses of why there were so highly touted, they were in no way, consistent major leauge pitchers. If you can get Pettite, no matter how average he is at this point, they should pull the trigger. What's the worst that happens: they leave Hughes in the minors all year and don't ruin his confidence if big leaugers mash against him?

I'm into it...give him two for $25MM!

[YF]

SF: It's not a a knock on the burbs; it's really about Pettitte. I get the sense that he doesn't like NY, so he secludes himself off in the hinterlands, and only ventures in to the stadium as necessary. You can be from Westchester and love Westchester and NY, and from Jersey and love Jersey and NY, but my sense is that Pettitte doesn't really like Westchester, Jersey, NY, or anything north of Tulsa, and that he'll come here to cash the check because he appreciates the Yanks, but can't wait to get back home.

[Brad]

FWIW, there is a pretty good comments section going on at WasWatching.com about Pettite. I agree with most of them that NY fans have a terrible tendency to overrate Pettitte based on their own hometown bias. If you look at Mussina and Lilly, both are better options at this point.
But I'll say this, if Pettitte is healthy and pitching well, he's probably better than Lilly but not Mussina.
Like I said from the start, despite his showings of brilliance against the Cardinals and Pirates and Marlins, he's a good back of the rotation guy at this point. A solid pickup, if it happens.

[Brad]

Plus, his relationship with Cashman and Steinbrenner can't be all that great at this point.

[SF]

With so many good arms on the rise, this is no time to clog up the rotation...

I think the odds that a Pettitte return would "clog up the rotation" is nil, particularly if it's a one or two-year deal. Quite the opposite: it seems like a totally intelligent move, aimed at NOT clogging up the rotation long-term. The Red Sox learned about "depth" last year, thinking they had tons of it. With aging guys like RJ, Moose, and an unknown like Igawa, the worst-case scenario, as you seem to see it, YF, from a "clogging" standpoint is that these guys all excel(!), thus keeping some green, uber-prospects in the minors for a longer stint than originally planned. In that worst-case scenario, someone also becomes a valuable trading chip. A short-term deal for Pettitte doesn't bring the roster inflexibility you worry about. Quite the opposite: it's smart in all sorts of ways, as both insurance for performance and for player-development purposes.

[SF]

and that he'll come here to cash the check because he appreciates the Yanks, but can't wait to get back home

Substitute "any other team" for "Yanks" and you describe a lot of players for a lot of teams. Pettitte has a track record here of performance, and an ability to handle the New York stage. Why knock that so hard?

[Lar]

Ya, I put him as a reasonable #3 behind Moose and Wang. Maybe if RJ steps up it might not even matter, but for me it's more of an insurance than clogging..

[m.g. yanks fan]

If they can get him, great. I guess I look at this year as a transition year. They just need enough pitchers to allow the youngsters to come up slowly. That's why I think this one to two year contract is a pretty good fit.

I do also think my heart is clouding my head on how good he is at this point. he'll probably be a back of the rotation guy, like brad said.

[Seth]

I would rather Pettitte for a 1 or 2 yr deal. He is loved by fans already and knows the media. We will really need him for the playoffs and I trust him over Lilly.

[m.g. yanks fan]

seth

i agree. something about lilly bothers me. i just don't trust him in a big spot. i'm not saying pettitte is a sure thing either, but he has the track record.

[YF]

SF: I'm just saying I don't adore Pettitte. When he left, I wasn't sad to see him go. If he comes back now, i won't be doing cartwheels. It's picking up a solid lefty starter, as noted in the post.

[Brad]

I don't mean to send posters elsewhere, but Steve has a really interesting post at Was Watching about A-Rod's contract.
If I'm A-Rod, and clearly I'm not, I would definitely have to consider this. If you think about the money that is likely to get tossed around next year with guys like Ichiro, Jones, Wells, and Hunter - A-Rod could really clean up if he opts out.
Same agent as Drew, and it worked for him. I bet this is not just a rumor in the offices and meetings of A-Rod and his agent.
New Yorkers better learn to love this guy, and fast, because he has the option to leave whenever he wants to sign for more years and about the same money - without the BS he deals with in NY.

[Seth]

Arod may get a few more years added on but its tough (not impossible) to see someone getting more then 25 per year. And his martketing money will not go up for leaving the nyc.

Is it likely that Papelbon is the closer next year for the sox?

[Brad]

Is it likely that Papelbon is the closer next year for the sox?

I'd like to think so, but I don't.

[Paul SF]

For the last time, no, it's not likely. Medically, the Red Sox feel papelbon's shoulder will hold out longer with the steady work of a starter and not "the throw your butt off three days in a row then sit a week" pattern of a closer.

As for Pettite, growing up smack-dab in the middle of the dividing line that is south-central Conencticut, I knew a lot of Yankee fans who thought he was the best pitcher in the world. He's not. I've always thought he was a decent 2/3 pitcher who was overrated by a lot of yfs into an ace because of one season in which his numbers were ace quality (and another in which the Yanks' lineup helped him out immensely into a 20-win season). Now that he's got a 4+ ERA in the NL, yfs seem again set to welcome him as a savior. The last aging, left-handed, injury-prone pitcher who was feasting off the NL the Yankees acquired jsut had back surgery this offseason and posted a 5.00 ERA last year.

I don't think the Yankees shouldn't get him (he's a better option than Lilly), but I think they would need to be realistic that he's not much more than No. 4 starter in the AL East, a serviceable pitcher who can keep them from relying on the fragile everything of Carl Pavano and Randy Johnson coming out of spring training.

[SF]

seem again set to welcome him as a savior

Paul, I think this is a mischaracterization of general YF sentiment. From what I have read (see YFs post that you are commenting on!) it seems like most people on the YF side think a Pettitte pickup would be a solid, depth-related move including a guy who has shown himself able to play in NYC. I think that's sound reasoning and not like what you say.

[Hudson]

I'm really looking forward to a sabermetric analysis of the impact of suburban vs. urban residency on VORP and win shares.

Aaaanyway, it's long past time for some right-wing yahoo to buy some struggling club, rename it God's Team or the Avenging Angels or whatever, and stock it with Bible-thumpers like Andy Petitte and the bow-hunting Mike Timlin.

That's a team it would give me a lot of satisfaction to root against, even more than the MFYs.

[Hudson]

P.S. re: Papelbon's role next year: with Lester looking like he will be recovered in time for Spring Training, I wonder if the Sox may reconsider Paps in the rotation, at least until mid-season.

They could put JP back in the closer role, while they try JL as the #5 and keep looking for a mid-season closer deal.

Probably that won't happen, but the return of Lester adds an interesting wrinkle. It would be a shame to waste him as a middle reliever or even set-up man, though Boston needs help there, too. (And I don't think anyone's ever proposed Lester as closer.)

All of the above assumes 'Zak-Man/Dice-K/nickname-of-the-moment-of-that-Japanese-dude comes to Boston. If he doesn't, Lester would likely be pencilled in as the #5 unless the Sox make some other frantic deal.

The other decision looming for Boston is what to do about Tavarez. "The Orc" was a trainwreck out of the pen, then did surprisingly well as a starter, albeit in a very small number of starts that didn't prove much. One shudders to think of JT returning to a relief role, but then again there isn't much room for him elsewhere.

[YF]

i'll say this, if the Yanks plan on a rotation with Pettitte and Wang, they'd do well to get a solid glove at first. that infield would be taking a load of groundballs. also, a-rod will need to regain his form at the hot corner.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

a one year deal with a club option would be ideal. if those were the terms, i would be thrilled.

also, according to ESPNdesportes.com, the manny talks are ongoing. i plugged a portion into a translator, and here's a taste of what it gave me:

"The movement, that it contradicts one recent declaration of manager of Boston, Terry Francona, Wednesday could be completed, it assured the source.
"Something great could happen Wednesday. He would surprise to me that Ramirez is not changed to Seattle or east Los Angeles day ", it said the source.
The Dodgers would yield to the right Brad Penny and a pair of prospectos, whereas the Sailors have offered to Adrian Beltré and Richie Sexson, but Boston insists on including to one of two throwers, between the locking J.J. Putz and the preinn Rafael Soriano."

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=508950&page=story

prospectos, sailors, "the locker jj putz"... this one has it all...

[Paul SF]

SF:

"And that's what the Yanks should be shopping for right now: a pitcher who can fill out the top of the rotation for a year or two before Hughes and Sanchez and Clippard are called up. ...

"I'm a little giddy about the prospect of Good Ol' Andy returning. And I think all Yanks fan should be."

"I would welcome him back with OPEN ARMS. He would be a solid addition and his is a proven winner."

"I'd feel a lot better about the Yanks rotation if he agrees to come back."

These from Nick's post on the subject and some comments from various yfs. This is where that idea comes from. Granted, other yfs on the thread said he'd be a good No. 3, and I think even that's generous.

As I said, there's good reason for the Yanks to sign him. And as I said, there's good reason for fans like YF to be less than enthusiastic. And further, as I said, the outright enthusiasm I've seen about such a pickup seems to be a function of Pettite's long history of being overrated in New York.

[SF]

Besides the first comment, which specifically points to Pettitte as a "top of the rotation" guy, I don't see how those other comments overstate Pettitte's potential. They are effusive about his return, but nowhere is there indication that he's viewed as a "savior", as you say.

YFs seem in general (YF excepted) excited about a possible return and reasonable in their expectations, as they should be: he's solid and proven, and he doesn't require a 5 year commitment.

(look at me, defending YFs. shameful!)

[Andrew]

Andy Pettite, as he's looking for a short-term deal, is the the best option on the FA market for anyone.

I would go so far as to call Cashman the "30-something genius" of 2006 if he pulls this off, along with trading Sheff and Wright and signing Mussina, and dealing for Abreu middle of the season.

Just think, the Yankees don't even lose a draft pick.

[m.g. yanks fan]

i wouldn't go that far. he still has to pitch. and win. then you can decide.

[SF]

Which is better: Pettitte for 2 years and $30M or Roger Clemens for one year and $20M?

[Paul SF]

Clemens has shown more dominance and fewer injury issues during his NL stint. Of the two, he's the most likely to come back and pitch well in the AL at an advanced age.

Clemens at 2/$30M would be even better!

[m.g. yanks fan]

it would. i just wonder if clemens has any interest in going a full year.

[Seth]

Clemens

[Paul SF]

Jason Schmidt signs with LA: 3 years, $47 million. $15.66666667 million a year. So Zito's getting $16 million easy.

[Brad]

So Zito's getting $16 million easy.

very easy. I have this sneaky thought that Zito may wait, and price himself out of whatever teams were willing to pay. He could end up settling.

[SF]

Not a chance, Brad. Not a chance.

[Sam]

I agree with SF - Zito's going to get crazy money. I hope that Mets sign him for 6/$110m. Take the heat off the Yanks for a short while (though Zito will do well in the NL).

[Lar]

Clemens for 20$ mil is really Clemens probably getting 10$ mil for half a year. Plus the playoffs where it counts.

He might even be a great influence on Hughes and the other young 'uns. I would love Clemens.

Given Game 5 ALDS.. Clemens hands down..

I do like AP, maybe not to the point of overrating him, and (minus injuries) he's hell better than Jaret Wright.. so go figure.

[Nick-YF]

I guess when I said Pettitte would fill out the top of the rotation I was meaning the #2 or #3 spot. If we think Moose is so much better than Pettitte, then let's compare their last three years. Mussina was average in 2004 and 2005 and very very good last year, and Andy was average in 2004 and 2006 and brilliant in 2005. I don't see the gap between the two as being so wide.

[Paul SF]

Except for the NL/AL gap, Nick, which makes Mussina's average years much better than Pettite's, and his very good year at least equal to Pettite's brilliant one.

[bloodyank78]

I don't get it Paul, why piss in everyone's lemonade about the possibilty of the Pettitte signing? I would understand if everyone actually WAS carrying on like the Pinstripe Messiah was coming back to the Bronx, but it's not like that at all. The possibility that a guy like Pettitte, who won a few Rings with the Yankees; can obviously handle the pressure of NY, and is a very servicable lefty who knows how win ballgames has YF's excited at the prospect. It coming off as if you're annoyed with the enthusiasm some YF's have shown and you want to bring them down a notch. By the way, for an overated pitcher he sure matches up with a guy that no can honestly say is overated.
http://www.waswatching.com/archives/2006/12/joined_at_the_b.html#comments

[bloodyank78]

Sorry for the typos; should have read:
It's coming off; and
no one can honestly say

[dc]

...considering the veritable dearth of pitching available, the yankees would be smart to at least explore the reacquisition of pettite...he has some experience with the situation in new york, is not an antique, and could probably be very functional...i like the fact that he may only want a year or 2...that gives the yanks some flexibility...

...to the overreacting sf's, you can be a little more gracious than you're being...yf's who remember andy's success with ny recall the solid seasons, success in the clutch, and dependability in the post-season...those days may or may not be gone, but it's unfair to say the guy was over-rated...is that because he never played in beantown?...you force me to always ask that question, because you once had edgar renteria labled a "future hall of famer"...

...as for your closer, don't forget you still have a string tied to foulke...he may not be such a bad idea under the circumstances...he should be fully recovered now, and unless the problem is in his head [which i suspect], he could return to 2004 form...don't be so quick to forget that he was one of your most valuable players...

[Paul SF]

All right, all right, I concede the point. As it is, I think we all agree anyway that Pettite would be a solid pickup by the Yanks.

I always hated Pettite as a kid -- partly because he was good and not in Boston and partly because he wasn't as good as everyone kept making him out to be. You know how that goes. I suppose talking about him again brought up all those feelings again.

Anyway, apologies. I'll say no more on the subject.

[dc]

...paul, i realize i just defended pettite [his performance anyway], but just between me and you, i always thought he was a drip...kind of whining and annoying, but a gamer...

[Brad]

He's really good when you subtract a half a year off of every year since he left NY. I know that sometimes, especially in the NL, the lineups are so good that a pitcher loses his concentration and gets hurt in a hurry.
haha.
Sorry, I had to squeez it in. I've made my real feelings on the issue above.

[Brad]

HEY!!
The Manny Deal is done with LA!

Gammons is reporting that it's Manny to LA, with LaRoche, Broxton, Penny, and the famous PTBNL to Boston. LA Assumes Manny's contract and agrees to a two year extension. All that's pending is Manny's approval, but noone can get in touch with him as of yet.

That's a really good deal for Boston. REEAAALLLY GOOOD.

[Brad]

Just kidding, Fellas. Figured I'd throw a joke in here somewhere. It's been to serious all day with all this rumors and waiting and rumors again.

laugh. It's funny!

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

i just pooped in my pants a little bit.

thanks.

the cubs get lilly.

does this mean the yankees feel they have the inside track on pettitte?

[Brad]

That didn't take long at all. Cashman must've squashed that quick. Man, I think if I had the choice I'd have gone with Lilly. He did it last year in the AL with very little problem. I don't know, maybe he's more attracted to pettitte's length than Lilly capabilities.
Who knows.

[Andrew]

I actually believed that, my first thought was "Oh great, what a terrible deal for Los Angeles."

Glad to see the people over there aren't actually THAT stupid.

[Brad]

Now, I just need Texas to step up and blow Pettitte out of the water.
That would make my day for the Yanks to end up having to choose between a big trade and Zito, or staying put. Not that staying put isn't a viable option for them, but it's very uncharacteristic of them.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

ca$hman has said that he was comfortable with what he had.

is he a religious man?

pavano is slated to pitch. i would seek one more arm if i were him... so long as the pricetag was reasonable.

[Brad]

Carl Pavano?
Really?
No, we can't be thinking of the same guy, here. That's like Theo telling us that it'll be okay because Clement will be back in great shape by the time they head to Florida. Or, it's like saying "we're totally comfortable with Bubba Crosby in center field this year" or "Hughes is as dominant as his numbers suggest he is, but we don't feel the need to move him up into the higher leauge just yet".

Three years in a row, we've all heard that Pavano is in good shape and we're all looking forward to seeing him in Spring Training.

Don't color me convinced this time around.

Cash needs an arm, and he needs one bad if he's hoping for Carl Pavano.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

Thank God you aren't the Yankees GM Brad. Over the past 3 seasons on average AP has a lower WHIP (1.18 to 1.37), less walks per 9, a lower ERA (3.30 to 4.51), less hits per 9, more innings per season (171/167), more k's per season (143/137), K's per 9, more QS's and HR's allowed. And I know what's next, he pitches in the NL, his XERA was 3.18, as compared to Lilly's 3.68. AP's BPV was 64 for last season and Lilly's 47. (BPV=Base perfomance value, Baseball HQ generally considers a BPV of 50 to be the minimum level required for long-term success.)

I will stick with the AP possibilty.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

Or Maybe it's like RS fans insisting prior to '06 that Coco Crisp was a legit replacement for Johnny Damon.

[Brad]

he is. he was hurt. But, like a Yankee fan, you refuse to belive that.

Also, Lilly comes with no arm problems, and a yes, he was in the AL East (the hardesd division) versus the NL Central (the weakest one).

I dunno, man. But since the Pettite thing isn't done yet, we can hold judgement for now.

Okay, dinnertime.

[Josh SF (D1)]

Let's be fair here...saying Lilly comes with no arm problems implies that he's a lock to stay healthy, and that just isn't true. He only made 25 starts in 2005, and has never exceeded 200 innings or 32 starts.

And about Crisp...he was hurt, his offense suffered, but his D was stellar. And he shouldn't be leading off anyway; even healthy, Youkilis was clearly the better option. It was wrong of the Boston FO to bill Crisp as Damon's replacement in the field AND the lineup, but to be fair, they probably didn't know what to expect out of Youk.

And another thing...much has been made of the year Damon had...am I the only one who was less then impressed? He stayed healthy and played tough all season, which is something...but as a leadoff man? A .359 OBP isn't awful...but it's also the 3rd straight season of decline. And much is made of his rbi/run totals, which we of course know are largely dependent on his team...the fact is, Damon only hit .260/.338/.398 W/RISP. The power was nice...but will it last?

I was far happier with Youk's season batting first...and I don't think it's entirely crazy of me to say so. A .286/.385/.430 line batting first isn't ideal for a 1B, but it is pretty ideal for a leadoff man. His line W/RISP is a little skewed because he jumped all over the lineup, though he did see the bulk of his time hitting first: .325/.427/.528. And the power has nowhere to go but up.

I guess my point is this: Still no regrets here in not signing Johnny Damon. I'm happier with Youk leading off and, assuming health brings an offensive rebound, a healthy Crisp playing CF and batting lower in the order. Still don't miss the Bearded One.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

I shouldn't even argue with someone that believes Johnny Damon and Coco Crisp are equal talent wise. Please show me numbers that prove your point OTHER than you being a Sox fan and Crisp playing for the Sox. 2003-2005 (since he was hurt last season we won't count that) Damon is better is every category except Slg% and HR's in 2005 and SB's in 2004 (beat JD by 1!). Maybe it's defense, nope they are separated by 1 error in 2004 and 2005 and in 2003, they both had 1.

Lilly too has health issues. Bouts with shoulder tendinitis in 2002 and 2005. 2005 Bicep tendinitis. 2006 back issues.

As for the AL East/NL Central argument, compare AP's AL East #'s, you will still find by the numbers, he is better.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

Desturb...very good points. Thanks for arguing rationally. But I will still take Damon's leadership and toughness, as well as superior offensive numbers any day. I know his numbers are in decline, that's natural he is 33 and that he has a salad shooter for an arm. But he runs through walls and plays hurt, I will take that anyday.

[Josh SF (D1)]

I'm assuming you're talking to Brad...right?

[Josh SF (D1)]

Heh that's twice in a row we post at the same time...

Fair point. Two ways to look at it; let's just wait and see what everybody does next year.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

Yes sir.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

What concerns me most is the Marte factor. Coco not only has to play better than JD, but he also has to make Sox fans forget they lost out on a VERY good 3Bman.

Also it's all relative, JD gives the Yankees what they need, a leadoff hitter with some speed and Coco gives the Sox what they need, a bottom of the lineup guy with solid CF defense. I am being reasonable here, I really don't see Coco ever being an offensive threat, but again it's relative with Papi and Manny, you really don't need a slugger.

[Josh SF (D1)]

Exactly. As for Andy Marte...yeah, that could end up stinging a little. But unless he puts up AS-calibur numbers right away...all Crisp has to do is return close to his 04-05 self and keep playing great CF D to keep most of us quiet. At least for 2007...

I am concerned about what will happen with 3B in 2008, though...Lowell and Inge look like they'll be the best 3B's on the market, and that's not good. (Really could have used Andy LaRoche...) If if turns out to be a situation where we could have kept a perennial AS in Marte, and then thrown money at Wells or Jones to play CF...at that point, it won't matter what Crisp does-fans will be pissed.

[Quo]

d-1, I got to go to Comerica this summer and watched Inge play: The guy is the real deal defensively. He's athletic and has good range. His somewhat high error totals could be attributed to all the balls he gets to that no one else does, as well as some adjustment to the position(brought up as a catcher). He's got some pop in the bat, decent runner, though he could certainly use some lessons on plate discipline and contact hitting.

Also have to consider the possibility that what the FO will look for post-Lowell is someone to play 1B and move Youkilis back. Looking quickly at the list, and actually...wow. No one. "Best" options are Sean Casey and Tony Clark. No thank you.

[Josh SF (D1)]

Maybe Lars Anderson will explode in 2007, and as a 20-year-old phenom, earn the starting 1B job for Boston? No? Not happening? Umm...play Ortiz at first and DH Wily Mo? Yeah that kind of sucks too...Dammit.

Thing about Inge...a career OPS of .776 doesn't excite me no matter how good the D. I really don't see any way to fill the 1B or 3B hole without trading...it's still so far off that it isn't really worth speculating, but it's something to keep in the back of our minds.

Stupid Dodgers...just give us fricken Broxton, LaRoche, and Loney and everything will be fine.

[Quo]

I think he'd at least be worth looking into if he can improve his BA and/or OBP, since that's what's really dragging his OPS down. His SLG, while not stellar is acceptable for the position. I was going to say we should consider the fact that he plays in a pitcher's park, but he's actually slightly better at home than on the road.

Same names will probably be bandied about in trade rumors after 2007 at 3B, Beltre, Crede, and the Rockies' potential logjam of Atkins, Stewart, and Baker. Wouldn't mind picking up one of the youngsters from Colorado, especially given that Theo could play the "unproven" card in trade talks.

[Josh SF (D1)]

Yeah...I could see a trade midseason too, depending on how things look. Most importantly...I think the Manny-trade-talks are officially done. Like they were dead before, now they're a good 6 feet under.

Dodgers sign Luis Gonzalez. Yeah, he's almost as good a bat as Manny...good work Ned. I'm sure he'll be a real difference maker this year...that sub-.800 OPS and shoddy D is gonna be HUGE.

[Josh SF (D1)]

Oh...and I don't normally sit on my computer at 2 in the morning, waiting for people to post so I can respond...I'm writing a paper and baseball is a nice distraction. Heh.

[Quo]

Remember, d-1, Ned comes from San Francisco. Signing overpaid over-the-hill "veterans" is *much* more important than going with a young core or at least signing players still near their prime.

[Rob (Middletown, CT)]

I'd be happy to have him back. You really cannot count on *anything* from Randy Johnson. The man is 43 and is coming off of back surgery. Andy would be a solid #3 guy behind Moose and Wang. Then you fill out the 4 and 5 slots with some combination of RJ, Igawa (assuming he signs), Rasner, Karstens, Pavano (LOL), Hughes...

Pitching depth is good. Getting a pitcher with Pettite's track record and only having to give him a 1 or 2 year contract? Beautiful.

[dc]

well d-1, maybe the dodgers felt you guys wanted to much for manny...after all with all his talent, he is damaged goods right?...it cracks me up that you guys think all the other gm's are dopes, just waiting for theo to pick their pockets...take my word for it, you're better off that theo didn't try too hard to trade the guy...it was obviously a token attempt to appease him so he won't lay down on you this year...

[Josh SF (D1)]

dc,

The Broxton-LaRoche-Loney thing was a joke...I wanted Manny traded (see: I wanted the Dodgers' kids) and expressed that with a degree of bitterness. I don't actually think the other GM's 'are all dopes, waiting for theo to pick their pockets,' and I understand why Colletti wouldn't pull the trigger on such a deal. Gimme a break...

PS: The Mariners GM is a moron for handing JS Rafael Soriano for a No. 5 starter. I do think Theo could have fleeced him.

[dc]

d-1...i know you wanted manny traded...i'm not a dope either, and i can read...that doesn't change the point that the consensus is, not just me, but the real "experts", and even some gm's, that the sox just wanted too much...what do you want me to say?...i still think you're better off with him, but what do i know...