Bearsfan vs. Coltsfan: Super Bowl XLI Open Thread

We'll be rooting for the Bears in today's big event, both out of league loyalty (as Giants fans we owe allegiance to the NFC) and—more pertinently—because an esteemed member of the YF family works for said organization. So we hope they win, but we also hope to see a good show from Peyton Manning. We don't buy the "can't-win-the-big-one" yoke he's been saddled with; Dan Marino and Dan Fouts never won Super Bowls, and there's no debating their greatness. (See also, Don Mattingly and Ted Williams and Ernie Banks.) Anyway, this is your thread for all things Super Bowl. Use it as your catchall for digressions on the utter superiority of the National Pastime, the commercials, the game, the postgame, you name it. We'll be here.

Comments

[Whatever]

As a Colts fan since the days of Johnny Unitas, needless to say, I want this one badly.

After finally getting by the Patriots when it really counted, Peyton Manning needs to close the deal on this one to get the critics off his back, much like the Red Sox needed to go on and beat the Cards after dispatching the Yanks in 2004.

[Paul SF]

Not to pick nits (which of course means I'll go right ahead and pick one anyway), but Don Mattingly might not be what most people call "great" -- certainly not when compared to those other two players.

Anyway, go Bears. I just can't bring myself to root for Payton Manning. The faster this game gets over with, the fewer sports there are to hog baseball's rightful spring limelight. 60 degrees and sunny out there today. I can almost hear the crack of the bat...

[dc]

...actually paul, most people [outside of loyal beantowners anyway] would and have called mattingly great...no surprise...
...other than that...super bowl?...zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Andrew]

Tony Gwynn is another example.

Except it's too bad he never won the WS, he had amazing postseason numbers.

[Paul SF]

Mattingly is probably one of those great debates that no one outside New York or Boston cares to have. It's tough to gauge how people outside our little bubbles see that situation.

[YF]

There are degrees of greatness, aren't there? Mattingly may not be on a par with Teddy Ballgame (that is a VERY short list), or even belong in the Hall (debatable, I suppose), but that doesn't mean he wasn't a great player. But for injury, he would almost certainly be a HOFer. In his prime, he was assuredly great, a deserving MVP.

[DAW]

Paul, your Yankee-Hater's cup runneth over. I do enjoy arguing with you and all of us on the site appreciate your quality posts a great deal, but damn, could you rein it in and let one slide once in a while?

[Josh SF (D1)]

"We don't buy the "can't-win-the-big-one" yoke he's been saddled with; Dan Marino and Dan Fouts never won Super Bowls, and there's no debating their greatness. (See also, Don Mattingly and Ted Williams and Ernie Banks.)"

Disagree with this a little bit...I don't think there's a real QB equivalent in baseball. A 1B or RF has a bad game, or even a bad series...not necessarily a big deal. The team can still win. But if a QB goes 10/24 with a couple of picks...

Makes perfect sense to slam Marino or Peyton for not winning the big one; both guys have made the playoffs repeatedly, neither have won it all (yet). The way I see it, if the club around you is good enough to have that kind of regular season W/L record, and the offensive weapons at your disposal are such that you can put up those record-setting passing numbers...you should win it all, at least once. That said, if the Colts score 31 points and still lose, well...not really Peyton's fault. Over the course of a career, though...I think it's a legitimate criticism.

[DAW]

In Marino's defense - he 1. never had anything other than swiss cheese for a defense, and 2. never had a decent running back to mix things up with.
I don't think it's fair to fault him for team deficiencies. No quarterback could have won the big one with the dolphins of Marino's era.

[Josh SF (D1)]

Heh, maybe not...I'm a little too young to remember anything about most of the Dolphins teams he played for. (See: 7 years old for his last AFC Championship game)

Anyway if the Colts do lose this game...I'm pretty sure it'll be because of their D anyway. For some vaguely baseball related analysis I'd reccomend this BP article. Funny, this is (statistically) the worst Colts team in the last 3-5 years, and they're the ones to make it all the way.

[YF]

How, then, do you rate a guy like Jake Delhomme or Trent Dilfer (they won, right?) or Doug Williams or Phil Simms (a YF fave) for that matter? Clearly these guys are nowhere in the vicinity of greatness. Is Tom Brady not a winner because he couldn't get his Pats through this year? A football game is—what?—45 guys playing 45 other guys? Yeah, the qb is central to the game, but how much control can he actually have—roughly half of the time he's not even on the field?

[YF]

To add, I remember when you heard this about Elway. The he had the string of rings, and he was all of a sudden a money player. And what about Jim Kelly? His fault that what's-his-name missed a chip shot wide right in 1990?

[Hudson]

I don't want to be a hater here, but I have to admit I kind of would enjoy it if Manning chokes again... if only to hear Mike and the Mad Dog rip him all day Monday.

[SF]

you're wrong about Manning: until last week he's been very poor in big big games, regular early round playoff games he's been fine, but that's nothing: he's had arguably the best regular season team over the past six years, something Marino could not claim. He deserves the monkey, though I hope he sheds it tonight.

PS: Jake Delhomme hasn't won squat.

[Josh SF (D1)]

I didn't say winning the SB was the only measurement of greatness...just one of them. I also said, "over the course of a career." So, no, Brady isn't a scrub for not winning it all the last 2 years. And I know system QB's exist, and winning in the playoffs does not make a Delhomme great. In a lot of ways, the term 'system QB' is a bit of a misnomer; the difference between a 'great' and an average QB, in my eyes, is that great QB's typically play in a system in which they are the focal point. No Marino, no Dolphins offense. No Brady, no Pats offense, no Peyton, no Colts. The other guys...the Delhommes, Dilfers, Roethlisbergers (Yeah, I'm calling that already) rely on an exceptionally well-built team that can dominate at least one aspect of the game. They're interchangable, or they at least look that way.

Even if Peyton never wins a championship (How sweet that would be...) he's still a great QB. He'll just always have the, "But he never won it all" attached; observers can make whatever conclusion they want about why. Basically all I was trying to say is that it's much harder to criticize a great position player for never winning it all then a great QB. I just don't really see the parallels. Though the more I think about it...the more I think the closer on a baseball team may be a decent comparison. (And yes, that scares me a bit) In postseason play, at least, a bullpen arm can be the difference maker. He can be Mo or the 2004 Foulke...or he can be Brad Lidge.

[DAW]

" 7 years old for his last AFC Championship game"

damn, i feel old all of a sudden. :)

[YF]

This Cirque-du-Soleil/Gloria Estefan/cheerleader deal is pretty attrocious. But I guess if you're in Miami for a public event, Estefan has to be involved. City ordinance.

Meanwhile, wife of YF just asked why the Miami team isn't playing if they're in Miami. Another flaw with pro football, but at least it's ourdoors this year.

[YF]

NOTE: a typepad bug (grrrr) is temporarily keeping SF from commenting (no, i am not responsible) so until you hear otherwise, he's responding through me, so take it easy on him and don't expect the usual lightning-quick responses. Working on this now.....

[YF]

Nice family promo. All the Mannings look alike. Scary.

[YF]

Phil Simms in the booth, on the 20th anniversary of his own heroics. Ah, now THAT was a team. I don't think either of these squads could stand up to those Gints, or to the Bears squad of 85, the greatest of all teams, IMHO.

Okay, these athletes today would probably kill those guys, but, well, that team was greater in its own day than either of these are now.

[YF]

no player intros?

[YF]

Becks, Martha, and Janet Reno in one ad, Winner!

[YF]

Cheesy Bites Pizza? Ick. At least they're not blaming it on Brooklyn.

[YF]

Chicago wins the toss. Money is already changing hands in Vegas.

[YF]

HESTER!!!!!!!! GO BEARS!!!!!!

[YF]

7-0. Who needs Grossman?

Didn't Desmond Howard win an SB MVP?

Jeez. He was watching the Diamondvision during the runback!

[YF]

Your turn, Peyton.

[attackgerbil]

Hesterical.

[SF]

The bears doing their best to keep Grossman off the field!

[attackgerbil]

YF: yep. something like 240 return yards.

Harris read that pick perfectly.

[YF]

Manning picked. Bad throw. Harris with the INT. Grossman, you're up.

[SF]

Manning not helping his own reputation with that floater...

[YF]

Bernard Berrian is a great name.

[attackgerbil]

Horrible pass by Grossman. Lucky lucky lucky.

[YF]

Grossman nearly picked. Not a thing of beauty, this.

[SF]

What's with the spinning slot machine cutouts set to rave music player intros?

[YF]

Okay. I'm already sick of the Slice ads.

[SF]

Tracy Morgan is not funny.

YF

At all

[SF]

Manning starting to look like Manning.

[attackgerbil]

Wow. Totally busted coverage. Tie game.

[SF]

TD to Wayne. Nice play off Manning's back foot.

[attackgerbil]

Ooops. Not a tie. He Romoed it.

[SF]

Blown PAT! 7-6 Bears.

[attackgerbil]

So far no commercial has rated above a "C".

[attackgerbil]

Fumble! Colts ball.

[attackgerbil]

Fugly game.

[attackgerbil]

Another fumble! Bears ball.

[attackgerbil]

WOW! Huge run! What a great hole.

[attackgerbil]

Nice thread by Grossman. TD Bears.

[Andrew]

I think Bud Light is winning the commercial war.

[attackgerbil]

Prince gets the half-time show from now on. That was Freaking AWESOME.

[Andrew]

Ugh, I hate Prince. His voice is just god-awful.

[JS]

Last night I watched super bowl 3 on the NFL network last night. With 2:26 left in the game, the colts faced a 4th and 5 from the jets 19. The colts were trailing 16-7 and had all 3 of their time outs, plus the 2 minute warning. Common strategy would dictate a field goal, but the colts went for it and turned the ball over on downs, after an incompletion. After that the colts D seemed to quit and the jets ran out the clock for all intents and purposes.

Frankly, I'd have taken the 26 yard field goal (remember the goal posts were closer then) and then hoped for some final momentum from the D to get the ball back. I think shula clearly made a mistake. But, I don't recall any controversy.

The announcers didn't make any second guessing type statements. In fact, they didn't even question the decision. I've watched the NFL films version of SB3 probably 50 times and not once did John Facenda ever mention shula's very real screw up. Also, in all the retrospectives that talked about the "greatest upset in history", I've never heard anything about shula's miscue. In fact, I didn't even know about the decision until I watched the actual game last night, which tells me that there was never a controversy.

I checked Wikidpedia.com and no one mentioned the "controversy". So what gives? Was this not a controversy? It should have been. I mean the colts would still lose probably, but who wouldn't take Johnny Unitas with 1-2 time outs, 55 yards and 2 minutes to take it down and win 17-16? FUGGETABOUTIT!

Even if someone thinks he made the right call, I think it was worth mentioning and defending. For instance if I'd heard something like "well, the correct strategy would normally be the field goal here, but shula knows his kicker is hurt", but that never got mentioned either.

So what do you guys think? Does anyone remember anyone in the press criticizing shula?

Also, why does Buckner get blamed for the red sox losing game 6 in 1986 when his error didn't cause the game to be tied (a wild pitch had already done that), but simply allowed the mets to win a game that they appeared to be ready to win anyway? Is that fair? Is it just a product of changing times and the media scrutiny? (which is what I think - I think that if this happened in 1999 instead of 1969 that shula would have been skewered!)

Finally, who ever knew about this before reading my post? Thanks.

[Melody Cruz]

The Colts are Superbowl Champion.Congratulations The Only Chokers left on the list Arod..

List of good players are that considerd Chokers on the list

Arod
John Stockton and Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
Ted Williams
Miguel Tejada

[JS]

Well Don Shula choked liked Marty Chokenheimer back in 1969....When he was marching through the Colts holding the Lombardi trophy, I wanted one of the Colts to yell, "Dammit Don, if you'd kicked with 2:46 left, we might have 3 rings for the Colts!!!!"

[Josh SF (D1)]

Manning gets the MVP...f*cking ridiculous...

[Whatever]

Well, it wasn't real pretty in those rainy conditions, but the Colts got it done.

I'm just extremely happy for Peyton Manning.

[Andrew]

Really desturb1? Who was the more deserving candidate?

[Josh SF (D1)]

I thought Addai or Rhodes deserved it...one of the few things the commentators said that I agreed with that whole game was that a case could be made for them sharing the honors. Don't get me wrong, Manning was pretty good...but Manning only threw 247 yards, and 66 of them went to Addai. He and Rhodes had 190 on the ground between them. They pretty much controlled the pace of the game by themselves.

Really, nobody stood out so much for this to be a huge controversy. I just don't like that before the game even started, you just had the feeling Peyton would get it if they won, barring some disasterous 3-int performance or something like that. And I have a ton of trouble imagining how this game would have gone if Addai and Rhodes hadn't been so effective.

[Hudson]

Those two final interceptions from Grossman were two of the worst passes I have ever seen a pro quarterback throw.

He lofted those up so high I could walk into the next room, crack open another beer, and slowly return to my seat on the couch before the pass came back down.

[Nick-YF]

the superbowl MVP: Prince. He was awesome.

A fun, if poorly played first half, turned to a snooze in the 2nd.

[SF]

Our sympathies to YF and his family in the front office of the Bears. Cliff may want to think about getting the scissors out for a little postgame action on Rex' contract.

[dc]

d-1, i think manning got the mvp more for the way he managed the game [and executed the plays the bears gave him...see addai's 10 catches] rather than his less than gaudy unmanning-like stats...kind of ironic when you think about it...the guy most accused of caring too much about his stats didn't have a big stat game, but still won the mvp...kind of tom brady-like don't you think?...

[Paul SF]

All I know was that was the most boring Super Bowl second half I've ever seen. The game reminded me a lot of the World Series -- each side trying really hard to let the other team have a shot at it.