Why Does Joe Torre Hate Us?

As noted in the comments two posts below, Joe Torre didn't have very nice things to say about Red Sox fans.

"I thought some of the anger would subside,'' Torre said before the clubs played at City of Palms Park. "Sometimes you have to remind Red Sox fans they did win the World Series, but they still maintain that personality.''

Somehow, I think the resentment is more a two-way street considering the events of a couple years ago. Even before 2004, I remember Yankee fans inexplicably hating the Red Sox and hating me because I liked the Red Sox. (Don't get me wrong. I do hate the Yankees. In fact, watching Johnny Damon talk on NESN the other day about how it was "a piece of cake" for his wife to have a baby, I wanted to hurl my couch through the TV).

Regardless, this is not the first time Torre has, frankly, talked out of his ass when it comes to Sox fans and the rivalry. I'm not sure why, but the Yankees' manager seems to think Red Sox fans are seething with anger and hatred for the Yanks and their fans, who have done nothing but enjoyed the purity of the game and the challenge of sport. Or something like that. That must be why riot police were needed to line Yankee Stadium's foul lines during Game 6 in 2004. The fans were just filled with so much love for the Sox players on the field they couldn't contain themselves!

Torre would do himself a service by sticking to on-field commentary.

Comments

[SSj4]

The Yankees hate is fueled by WEEI and all the venom they spew on a daily basis. It gets the fans amped up and they let it loose whenever the Yankees come to town.

Its become comical now and I the Yankee players could care less.

That makes their fans even angrier.

Some of them acted as if it was a playoff game last night. They played the Scranton Yankees in the last 5 innings of that game and they still acted like it was a “big” win.

The strange thing I noticed about the schedule this year is from Mid-April to Early June, the Yankees and Red Sox play 12 times. They only play 6 times the remainder of the season. Very, very odd scheduling this season.

[Paul SF]

I don't think the problem is getting excited over beating the Yankees in an exhibition game. I'd bet that most of the fans there either can't afford or are otherwise unable to attend a regular-season Sox-Yanks game, so why not get amped up for the one time you can see at least some ML Sox and Yanks go at it?

[SF]

The Yankees hate is fueled by WEEI and all the venom they spew on a daily basis. It gets the fans amped up and they let it loose whenever the Yankees come to town.

WEEI is, without a doubt, a ridiculous forum for baseball talk and the idiocy that emanates from those airwaves is a joke. But I think it's a mistake to use WEEI as some sort of proxy for the sentiments of the majority of Boston fandom. That's quite unfair. It's like citing Jerome from the Bronx on the FAN and saying that he's the everyman of Yankee fandom. He's wacky, entertaining, sometimes venomous, but I don't know of anyone else like him, and it would be unfair to extend his personality past then the man himself.

As I stated earlier in a different thread, I think George King does Torre a disservice here. Typically I think the "it was taken out of context" line total BS, but this comment by Torre appears so truncated I can't help but think it occurred during a more vast and fleshed out conversation. I like Torre a lot, so am willing to cut him some slack on this one.

[Graham Davis]

It's Nietzschean resentiment of the Yankees turned inwards for Red Sox fans...

[walein]

Maybe Joe is trying to set up one of those scenarios where he puts Globe clippings on the team bulletin board to get players amped? Maybe Joe just hit that pre-season ennui that sets in and wants to try to get the juices going cause he realizes it's gonna be a long season ahead.
Of course, some of those fans may have been saying some cruel things and Torre decided to generalize about all Sox fans based on an angry one-game audience. We have all been to events (not just Baseball) where for some reason or another there seems to be a formidable element of seething anger. It's possible that that element was at the game and got under Torre's skin.

[YF]

I think the view from the fishbowl of the players, on either side, is going to be a little different from that of the fan, with reason, and i would agree with sf that this quote seems out of context, and more of a broad generality than any serious attack on boston fandom. joe is pretty even-keeled. but let's face it, for whatever reasons, yanks fans and sox fans have been at each other for decades, long before there was such a thing as weei or mike and the mad dog. it's a rivarly, and of course there is a large segment of the population that is knuckleheaded, and let's face it, sports appeals to that segment. i like to think we have a higher level of discourse here, but that's us. for a player, who has to sit out there on the field or in the dugout, exposed, while 34,000 or 57,000 (as the case may be) fans chant boston/yankees suck, well, that's got to skew your perspective a little bit. especially these days.

[walein]

Especially when you know that if there are any "absolute truth" in our universe it is that the Red Sox indeed suck.

[walein]

The other truth?
Walein doesn't handle the english grammer so well.

[Paul SF]

Not that I'm disagreeing with SF or YF. In fact, I agree with both of them, which has to be some sort of record, but the Herald has essentially the same quote from Torre.

Of course, if the Post and Herald BOTH say it, it must be doubly true... right?

[Jim]

Uh, the police line the field after every post-season game. I personally watched Boggs ride a horse around the field in 1996.

Better than shooting your fans, I suppose.

[Jim]

And I thought Torre was spot on. I've always considered Sox fans more of a jealous pest because they couldn't deal with the Yankee exploits. But I'd never say I hated them.

Paul, if anything, proves the point. He's still angry even after 2004, so much so that he wrote a hate-filled post from one Torre comment. Is third place really so bad?

[sf rod]

so it's cool when torre broadstrokes boston sports fans, but not cool when john rocker decribes a ride on the 7 train.

got it.

[Devine]

Jim.

First, they lined the field DURING the game when some fans got upset with the "A-Rod interfered/is out" call and started throwing stuff on the field.

Second: dude. Not...effing...cool. You stay classy. I know, I know, just like the Boston police force...or the Yankee fans during Game 6.

On-topic: yes, the "intensity" of fans on both sides can be distasteful. I'm going to my first Yankees game at Fenway this year, so perhaps now I'll see the atrocities committed by my own side with my own eyes (I've had one bad and several good experiences at Yankee Stadium with a Sox cap on).

[lp]

Paul SF, are you seriously trying to suggest that Red Sox fans as a whole are bastion of sportsmanship when the Yankees come to town and that there is no more anger displayed than when they host other teams in the division? That’s almost as ridiculous of a claim as Fenway wasn’t booing Johnny Damon when he returned.

If that is, in fact the case, I don’t think I’ve read a bigger load of doo-doo on this site for the entire time I’ve been posting here. You’ve taken SF’s ‘Who me?’ and upped it tenfold. Talk about living in a bubble. If you have that much of a lack of self-awareness regarding the fan base you are apart of, then nothing can help you.

And none of this has to do with sports radio whatsoever. Yes, it fans the flames but there was always fire that went way over the top and rivals the hatred Browns and Steelers fans have for one another as people and citizens of their respective communities.

For the record, my opinions were formed when I was a resident of Boston and lived on Beacon & Park. (Figure I’d qualify myself and save you some wasted ‘you’re not informed’ posts)

And YF, I’ll have to disagree with you as well regarding Torre. I know you’re defending him. But based on the things he has said over the years regarding Red Sox fans (and it’s been pretty consistent throughout his tenure) I don’t think he would want to be defended on this point, nor do I think his comments are all that much out of context. In the past, I’ve heard him relay more personal stories about it and he really does dislike Red Sox fans. And in those interviews he’s very careful to distinguish between players and fans.

Where you’re right is that he doesn’t have the view of things from the field as fans do in the stands. However, he’s been around baseball for a long time, playing, managing and broadcasting in all types of situations. And it is the comparison of Fenway against everything he’s experienced everywhere else that shapes his opinions.

What differs with Torre is that he is being candid and direct regarding a subject (fans of the other team) that most managers are very diplomatic on. My theory is that he’s just not looking for another managing job, particularly one in Boston.

[Bil Md]

Redsox Payroll at $160 million? I thought that Redsox payroll for 2007 is $140?

FORT MYERS, Fla. -- On a $160 million payroll loaded with big contracts, they represent two of Boston's biggest bargains, a product of a compensatory system that rewards experience and past performance more than excellence at the outset of a player's career.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/03/13/sox_are_playing_along/

[Jim - YF]

Once again, here's the quote:

"I thought some of the anger would subside,'' Torre said before the clubs played at City of Palms Park. "Sometimes you have to remind Red Sox fans they did win the World Series, but they still maintain that personality.''

And Paul's post proves the point. What's the problem?

[bloodyank78]

Why be angry at Torre here Paul? Maybe Torre's experience with Sox fans justifies his sentiments. Aside from a few guys I go school with that are Sox fans, and certain individuals on this site, I share his view somewhat. Me and the wife went to see the Dominican vs. Cuba last year at Petco for the WBC. There were a TON of Soxfans there, with their Dominican Papi jerseys on and such, and afterwards at the bars in the Gaslamp they were there too, quite a few talking shit due to my Yankee hat on my head. When I go to Angel games vs. Boston, many of the New England transplants that show to root on their beloved Sox are obnoxious blowhards as well. At one of the games two seasons ago, I was sitting there with a buddy and this guy in his 70's, a season ticket holder for 25 plus years, leans over and says, "these Boston fans are the worst, worst I tell you". I asked him why and he replied "because they come in here like they run the place and are as obnoxious as all get out" (his words not mine).
My point is that everyones' own experiences can shape how they view other fans. My experience has been mostly negative with Boston fans. I know SF and others get infuriated when someone generalizes and paints all Soxfans as loud mouth Sully from Worcester, and that's not what I am trying to say here. But I guarantee you that many Soxfans have had experiences which lead them to believe that most Yankfans are a guy named Sal from Jersey wearing Majestic Jeter shirt and screaming obscenities at opposing fans at the Stadium.
We all know there are great fans on both sides, but one's perceptions can very often be reality to them.

[Jim - YF]

Seriously though.

Tea simply said:

Sox fans = Angry
2004 should have made them happy.

Paul = Angry
2004 should have made him happy.

Seems like simple math to me. Really, what's the problem?

And for the record, Yankee fans are seldom angry. They're blowhards and obnoxious, but angry is an an adjective that seldom applies. For Sox fans, anger often applies.

Is it really so hard to read Torre for what he said instead of getting all angry over something he didn't say?

[SF]

During the '99 ALCS, there was a terrible call in Fenway, and the fans went nuts. I think there was a massive delay because something like 1455 beer cups and 2345 cracker jack boxes were chucked onto the diamond by angry fans. I recall the Sox fans being lambasted for their actions by members of the Yankees and their front office. The reaction of the fans was embarrassing (and due to a completely incorrect call, a phantom tag by Chuck Knoblauch on Jose Offerman, if my dim memory serves). Torre had this to say:

Yankees players and staff were furious with the fans' behavior.

"I think it's inexcusable," New York manager Joe Torre said. "Not that Jimy Williams did what he did. I'm a manager. I understand the frustration that goes on inside. ... But to have people throw stuff, that's disgraceful, it really is. I know it's not an indication of Boston, Massachusetts, because I've been around the city now for four years and it's shown a lot of class to me. But tonight was a bad mark against a very good team.

So what has changed for Torre? Maybe he's the guy showing a little frustration? Maybe his quotes are taken out of context? Maybe he's just being a little inconsistent? I don't recall him calling out Yankees fans for their "disgraceful" actions after the slap-reversal, when many things were thrown on the field after that play (a correct call, unlike in '99 in Boston, ironically). But big deal. We have to keep in mind that we aren't dealing with steel-trap memory kind of guys here, and forgive them a little inconsistency sometimes, particularly the classy guys. Torre's one of them.

[Jim - YF]

And me, would I realy give a rat's ass if Shaky said soemthing general about Yankee fans? Who cares. Indeed, if any of the Sox said something, why should I care?

Shoot, your overload called our team the Evil Empire and Yankee fans have embraced that even if it means I'm rooting for Darth Vadar to kill small children.

[sf rod]

i could only imagine the discourse that would take place here if francona would have said...

"I thought some of the smug sense of entitlement would subside,"... "Sometimes you have to remind Yankee fans they haven't won the World Series in a while, but they still maintain that personality.''

[Jim - YF]

I see no problem if anyone from the Sox said that - Shaky or otherwise. It's true.

Still, I was very happy with meaningful baseball in September and October. By contrast, a large chunk of SF's were very angry during that same time.

[lp]

@ bloodyank

Red Sox fans DO talk more unsubstantiated smack of any group of sportsfans that I've experienced.

Joe should worry less about a few overethusiastic Sox fans (it's a big-time sport, pal, and you're getting paid well to do a job that 999 out of 1,000 men would kill for) and worry more about his own inability to bring another ring to NYC despite George spending roughly a billion dollars since 2000 on his rosters.

[Hudson]

Joe should worry less about a few overethusiastic Sox fans (it's a big-time sport, pal, and you're getting paid well to do a job that 999 out of 1,000 men would kill for) and worry more about his own inability to bring another ring to NYC despite George spending roughly a billion dollars since 2000 on his rosters.

[SF]

For Sox fans, anger often applies.

Bad generalization, and also a mischaracterization. For me, the most common emotions with the Red Sox, until 2004, were sadness and disappointment. I was rarely angry, except at certain managerial decisions.

Most of my friends and I would just be despondent after the typical Sox collapse, with no energy left for anger.

[Jim - YF]

Anger pervades most of RSN. Is that really news? Really?

The Yankees, by constrast, are freakin' Zen. In my lifetime I've watched a Yankee dynasty, including the greatest team EVER, and them win 10 straight divisions titles. I really wonder if I'll ever be truly angry as a fan.

[lp]

"it's a big-time sport, pal"

Hudson, given that Torre has won more rings than you've witnessed your team win in your entire lifetime, I pretty sure he knows what the "big-time" is.

[Jim - YF]

The question is, SF: How would you feel towards the Yanks? Especially in Spring of 2004?

Hate, Anger, it's all the same.

2004 ALCS? I was sickened but I was actually happy for my Sox friends. By Spring, that had faded for "it's our year to take the title back". Sure, I'm still waiting. But I'm not angry.

[Devine]

I'm just gonna say that I like by78's post the best on this list. He acknowledges that his opinions and those of other are perceptions and yet still demonstrates antagonism, being thus neither pu*** nor ass****.

[bloodyank78]

In all fairness, and with full disclosure; about five minutes after that old man ripped Boston fans he told me that Yankee fans are assholes too when they come out to Angel Stadium to root on the Bombers. See, there's douchebaggery on both sides of the fence.

[YF]

Let's also face facts: Yanks and Sox fans do have personalities that they've developed over the years. that's a good thing. it makes life interesting. the cities are different. the people within them are different, shaped by different histories. fine. at the ballpark, you get a few blowhards together and this can manifest itself in some not pleasant ways. sox fans get can real nasty. and from someone who came of age in the yankee bleachers in the 80s, where possession of a sox cap was an automatic provocation to a fist fight, i can tell you the reverse is true as well. i think we were cheering "boston sucks" before the fenway faithful came up with "yankees suck" (sox fans, always followers!). so let's all look in the mirror before throwing stones.

as for torre, i'm sure he doesn't think all sox fans are jerks, but when you're sitting in a dugout and the entire stadium starts reverberating, well, i'm sure it can feel that way. but like sf said, he's a class guy, let's not make it anything more than that.

[Paul SF]

So, Jim, because the Red Sox won the World Series in 2004, I shouldn't ever be angry about something that's said about the Red Sox or their fans by a member of the Yankees, ever? Wow. That's a heck of a standard. You're multiple attempts to show I "prove Joe Torre's point" are way off the mark, proven by the fact that despite multiple attempts to get someone to agree with you, no one has.

Paul SF, are you seriously trying to suggest that Red Sox fans as a whole are bastion of sportsmanship when the Yankees come to town and that there is no more anger displayed than when they host other teams in the division?

Um, no, actually. Nowhere in my post was that said or even intimated. The fact that you are so defensive as to create a whole post rebutting a point concocted entirely by you says much more than I ever could. I was merely saying that Torre took Red Sox fans to task in general terms when both sides have less-than-savory elements to their fan bases, and that Torre should be smart enough to know that being a member of the Yankees, his fan base has constructed a large enough glass house from which to avoid throwing stones.

The responses by Jim and LP, in particular, shows that the anger clearly cuts both ways in this rivalry.

As for why I'm angry at Torre (and I'm not that angry. Just piqued.) -- for me, it is the inconsistency. The stones and glass houses principle. The fact that this rivalry is heated on both sides, that there is a lot of anger on both sides (particularly among the rowdier, drunker elements of the fan bases), that in the context of the rivalry there's a lot of justification for anger/hatred/frustration on both sides (though never a justification for the fan reactions in 1999 and 2004). Yet Torre focuses on just one side. Is it because he's probably got a short memory, has better things to worry about, sees life and the fans and the games through the Yankee-clubhouse echo chamber? Sure. I can understand that. A little balance -- or, better yet, a little silence -- is all I ask.

[Jim - YF]

I think you're missing the point YF, playing the mediator role with SF. Let's look again at what Torre actually said:

"I thought some of the anger would subside,'' Torre said before the clubs played at City of Palms Park. "Sometimes you have to remind Red Sox fans they did win the World Series, but they still maintain that personality.''

Two questions:
1) Has the anger against the Yankees really "subsided"?

2) Has the greatest comeback really made Sox fans hate the Yankees any less?

If you can't answer those questions with an affirmative, then what Torre said applies to you. Paul, in the very post that started this sad, sad discussion, proves the point countless times.

And anyone think Torre's feelings are at all related to how Damon was treated last year? There was alot of anger directed at him. That had nothing to do with class - it's that pesky anger again. Another manifestation of the same underlying "personality".

Now, do I doubt that some YF hate the Sox and their fans? Hell no. But they're in the minority compared to their counterparts on the other side.

[Jim - YF]

Funny enough, Paul, I don't care if anyone agrees with me. It's a dumb baseball argument. But you're the one with alot of anger - you even say so. Then you get angry for Torre calling you out.

And as I mentioned, I don't care if anyone on the Sox side thinks anything of Yankee fans. I simply don't care one way or another.

Your post is just plain funny. You express yourself to be the guy you're saying so loudly you're not.

And finally, I love how often SF's try to make the rivalry equal - "heated on both sides". Ha! It's far, very far, from equal. The Sox won in 2004. Sox fans should be happy, and for at least a few years at that.
But they're not - they're angry and greedy. That's quite a combination.

Me, I'll just enjoy the baseball, thanks.

Meanwhile, how about Schilling saying on his blog that Varitek can't call a game?

"So we're into the fourth inning, and the inevitable happens. I start Cuddyer off with a curve ball-strike one. My thought as the pitch is being called is, "OK, anything but a fastball here." Tek puts down fastball in, I shake no. Tek puts it down again, which means he feels great about the pitch. At this point the ONLY thing to do is commit to the pitch and throw it as I called it or step off. I do neither. Mentally I think no, but physically I nod yes. In the middle of my windup I'm thinking, "OK, you idiot, why the hell are you throwing this pitch? About ten seconds later, when the ball lands over the left-field wall, I'm dropping words I'd put soap in my kids mouths for saying."

The "inevitable happens", huh? Where's the post on that?

[Paul SF]

Let's take your questions and turn them around, Jim...

Two questions:
1) Despite 26 World Championships, has the anger against the Red Sox really "subsided" over the past 70 years?

2) Has four World Championships in 10 years really made Yanks fans hate the Sox any less?

I'd answer no to both of those, since we're generalizing about each other's fan bases. In which case, it remains inconsistent to criticize the one fan base without criticizing the other.

[Paul SF]

Jim, nowhere in the post or my comments do I say I have any anger toward the Yankees at all. Do not make stuff up just to try to prove a point in, as you say, a "dumb baseball argument."

[m.g. yanks fan]

Jim, i don't think Schililng was saying that at all. he's the one who threw the pitch, and was yelling at himself for not believing in it.

i also think it's pretty pointless and petty on your part to try to start another argument here. i love discussing baseball with YF's as well as SF's (seeing as how i lived there for 5 years), but when it gets to arguing over dumb stuff, i think it's pointless and takes away from how great this place is.

[Jim - YF]

For me, absolutely. I hated the Sox as a kid growing up in CT in the 80's and exactly halfway between both stadiums. I hadn't seen the Yanks win anything.

By 1999, the Sox were merely a pest. And Pedro made them scary. And in 2004 I thought going inthey had the better team.

Now? I don't hate them at all.

As for Yankee fans in general? Again, I'd say, not much hate on that side. That's why it was so easy to run with the Evil Empire gimmick. It's fun being hated, especially if you don't have the same distaste for the other side.

Sure, that's my view of things. But I'll guarantee that if the Yanks, or Giants, win a title in the next year, no player will lead a "Red Sox suck" chant nor will the crown drown out the celebration with one.

[Jim - YF]

mg -

Why would Schilling say it's "inevitable"? Because he always throws homers? Or when he listens to Varitek it happens?

Again, read what the man said.

[Paul SF]

Schilling always has had trouble (or he did last year) by serving up gopher balls while ahead in the count. That's more likely what he was referring to.

[m.g. yanks fan]

i did read what he said. and i still think you're wrong. seeing as how varitek catches most of the games schilling pitches, and that in the majority of them he pitches real well, i'm going to make a HUGE stretch here, and conclude that Varitek knows how to call a game.

[Jim - YF]

Paul -

You said: "I do hate the Yankees". Then you follow that up by saying you wanted to throw the couch through the TV. If that's not anger I don't know what is.

Then you follow it up with an off-color remark about our manager.

Meanwhile, you ask "Why Does Joe Torre Hate Us?" when nothing he said suggests that.

You're an angry dude. Pretty funny stuff in a post that claims RSN isn't angry.

[Jim - YF]

Or mg - He doesn't usually listen to what Varitek says!?

Shocking conclusion I know. But given the point of the post is how the "inevitable happens" when he doesn't trust himself and instead trusts Varitek.

I think it's safe to say Schilling isn't confident in Varitek's game calling abilities.

Where were you on this one, YF?

[LocklandSF]

"Now, do I doubt that some YF hate the Sox and their fans? Hell no. But they're in the minority compared to their counterparts on the other side."

Simply not true and any trip to Yankee Stadium wearing Red Sox colors will prove that, you're just wrong.

Also, Schilling later clarified that post Jim, again, you're wrong.

“I am making it abundantly clear that when Tek and I differ opinions, 99 times out of one hundred, he’s right.
Where I get in trouble is internally, not doing the things I need to do at times when he calls something I am not expecting.
He’s as prepared as any person on the planet to do his job, and when he wants something he will usually go right back to it after the pitcher shakes it off, thereby saying, without actually saying anything, that he’s got a feel or has seen something that will work better than whatever it is I planned or we had talked about.
Those are the times when, as a pitcher, you have to commit to his pitch and make it. I have, more than once, thrown a pitch I didn’t mentally commit to, and gotten beat by it.
When the ball gets whacked it always falls on the pitcher, if you can’t commit to the pitch, don’t throw it.
Seems easy enough but it’s a hard lesson to learn.”

[Paul SF]

Yes, Jim, because when I said Joe Torre hates us and that I wanted to hurl my couch through the television set, I was speaking without my tongue in cheek whatsoever. Much like this comment, as a matter of fact. In fact, rereading my original post, It doesn't seem angry at all. It's more playful than anything, though it does get a little sharp toward the end.

Anyway, if you're a Yankee fan and don't hate the Red Sox, Jim, you're a unique specimen. I'd venture that 95 percent of all Sox and Yanks fans hate the other side. And hatred does not equal anger, by the way.

[Jim - YF]

See, Schilling didn't talk about being ahead in the count, Paul. He talks about pitch selection. What he wanted and what his catcher wanted. The "inevitable happens" when he listens to his catcher.

Good stuff from the fat man with bloody sox!

[Devine]

I'd call it more a healthy fear and respect, myself.

Cue Jim telling me fear leads to anger and anger leads to hate...

[Jim - YF]

The clarification sound like good politiking from the man who wants to be president.

I'm not going to believe him after the fact. He's covering his ass.

[LocklandSF]

Jim, read Schilling's follow up that I posted, you just sound silly now.

[Paul SF]

Sorry, Jim. Schilling's quote proves you wrong and you turn around and say, "See, Paul, you were wrong!" I'm not playing that game. Have a fun thread here by yourself.

[LocklandSF]

Jesus, I keep doing this, trolls are so hard to spot these days....

Move along all, don't feed the trolls, nothing to see here.

[Nick-YF]

End scene

[Jim - YF]

Again, Paul you got a few things working against the 95% bit:

1) Yankees win rings - they don't chant "Red Sox suck" nor do the Fans drown out the celebration with those chants.

2) NY Giants win multiple silver footballs and neither the players nor the fans drown out that celebration with "Red Sox suck".

3) Players don't sign with the Yankees and say "I guess I hate the Red Sox now".

If your 95% guess was any where close to reality all of those things would be true. But they were only true on your side.

[bloodyank78]

"Dead equine, meet Jim, Jim meet dead equine."

[Devine]

He's got a way better strategy than usual for a troll, Lockland. Pretense of politeness, passive-aggressive, acts as though it's a debate, switches arguments to suit his purpose. Nice. Whoever's calling *his* pitches has us fooled.

Swing and a miss!

[LocklandSF]

Jesus, I keep doing this, trolls are so hard to spot these days....

Move along all, don't feed the trolls, nothing to see here.

[Jim - YF]

Again, Schilling doing a nice job covering his ass after the fact.

The "inevitable happens" when he listens to his catcher. That is priceless for the guy with nothing besides the "intangibles".

By the way, I'm looking forward to Tek's fall further off the cliff this year.

Me, I'll keep enjoying the HOF'er in Jorge.

[lp]

It's funny how the very people on this site who bring up the "stones and glass houses principle" are usually the ones who don't take it to heart - ever.

Paul SF, it was your opening post that narcissistically put the focus solely on Sox fans, not me. I'm just saying Joe meant it and he's right.

I'm sorry your delicate little feelings got stomped on :(

[Luis Figo]

Red Sox-Yankees is the same as Barcelona-Real Madrid in football (although the latter is much more intense).

They are the biggest most succesful teams in their respective leagues. However, Real Madrid and the Yankess have been a lot more succesful than the other two.

For the Red Sox and Barcelona fans that means:

Extreme inferiority complex, having to always compare their achievements to the superior team, resentment and hatred of anything related to the other team.

For the Yankees and Real Madrid fans:

Extreme satisfaction from their teams success to the point of arrogance, anything that goes wrong with the inferior team brings out genuine amusement, anything that goes right for the other team brings out jealousy as you expect to win every year but even the inferior team has to win once in awhile.

Red Sox-Yankees and Real Madrid-Barcelona are not really rivalries in terms of sucess because Real and New York have had most of it. It becomes a rivalry thanks to the hatred and the inferiority complex of Boston and Barcelona fans and the mocking by Real and Yankees fans.

[SandyAygoSoxfan]

Interesting discourse going on here. Makes me want to go kick the crap out of a yanksfan.

Because I'm so angry, mostly.

[Jim - YF]

No switching any argument. I was just surprised that YF didn't cover Schilling's comments. That's what originally had me over here. Mr Intangible can't call a game. That's quite a story, no matter how quickly Schilling backtracks from it.

The other argument is pretty solid, thanks. Tea said Sox fans are angry even as they should be happy after 2004.

Cue Sox fans getting angry.

Pretty funny stuff!

[LocklandSF]

Oops, double post, my bad.

For the record Jim, you're the exact type of arrogant prick Yankee fan that most of the country associates with all of the Yankee fan base, congratulations on perpetuating the stereotype. Thankfully most of us here know better.

Bravo.

Ok, now I'm done.

[Andrew]

I went to a Yankee/Sox game last year in the bleachers. A lot of the Yankee fans there are assholes (the 'bleacher creatures') who point at whatever Sox fan (one time there was a Devil Rays fan...and the Rays weren't even playing) during the 7th inning stretch and sing "Why are you gay" instead of the traditional YMCA. But that's all in fun. There was also a girl sox fan sitting in the middle deck directly up and to the left of the bleachers. It was fun, they antagonized her YF boyfriend, and when the Sox were losing and she was looking at us over the edge some guy said "C'mon, jump, end yeh misery!" It was great, and there are some real great baseball fans there (Though I must say they all shut up when the Yankees ended up losing, she rightfully stuck her tongue out at us, heh heh). I'd imagine that's true with a bunch of the devoted (although complete marketed bullshit) RSN fans, but the difference in my eyes is the lot of them are absolutely sincere in their insults. Most of the devoted YF in my experience are assholes, but they know how to have fun.

[Jim - YF]

Right, the "arrogant prick" that was happy for my Sox friends after they won in 2004.

And you too Lockland are angry! Ha!

What great entertainment on this Tuesday afternoon.

The Sox fans are angry all over the place for no reason whatsoever. Oh, right, Teaman called them angry! Ha!

[Devine]

Whereas me, I hurl babies from skyscrapers when the Sox lose to the Yankees.

Like 95% of Sox fans.

[LocklandSF]

Andrew, wait, so you're impressed that they didn't go after a woman, a woman that was with a male Yankee fan? Setting the bar kind of low, don't you think?

[SandyAygoSoxfan]

Here's a quote from Curt Schilling after he pitched to Varitek for the first time in April of 2004:

"I know offensively he was the star of the game. But the game he called, I probably shook him off three times tonight. Once he wouldn't let me shake him off, but that was his game. We talked the last five days about how I thought things were going and it was good dialogue and it showed tonight results-wise. That's probably why he's as good as there is back there calling a game."

Care to try and flip that statement, Jim?

[Paul SF]

I suppose we all have examples of one or the other. I had a Yankee fan slap a drink out of my hand (when I was 12) at a New Haven Ravens/Trenton Thunder game, when the Thunder were a Sox affiliate. Talk about ridiculous. I think everyone here knows there's a little of everything in both fan bases. The great thing about this site is that we all recognize that, keep each other honest and have a great time debating each other more or less on a higher plane than the lowest common denominator.

That said, I'm not sure what on earth you're talking about, LP.

[lp]

Paul SF, please refer to Lockland's comments and have a nice evening.

[Jim - YF]

No, I don't because it's obvious Schilling has no learned better. He wanted one pitch. Varitek wanted another. The "inevitable happens" when he listens to Varitek.

He can spin it any way he wants after the fact. But he wrote it eaxactly like that on his blog. There's no misquote here folks. He could have written it any other way and he didn't.

The "inevitable happens" when Varitek calls games. I'm sure Beckett would agree if he could.

[Andrew]

Lockland - what? No, that was an example where, in my view, Yanks fans teasing the Sox fan and also her Yankee fan boyfriend. Nothing harsh or really sincere which I hear a lot out of mouths of Sox fans. Really - the loud chants of "Yankees suck!" during the PATRIOTS game, I think, is a good indication of what a lot of the devoted members of RSN are like. And it's different from Yankee fans, because they're mostly concerned with their own team and don't exactly go out of their way - say go to a Giants game - to shout out their dislike of the Red Sox. Really, it just seems to me like a strong contingent of Sox fans are absolutely obsessed with hating the Yankees, even over liking their own team, and I just don't see that level of devotion of hatred towards the Sox with Yankee fans.

[Paul SF]

I'm beginning to wonder if LP is one of those random quote generators you can find on the Internet. I write a post, he responds to a point in the post I never made. I inform him that he was incorrect in his assumption, he calls me narcissistic. I ask him what he means, and he refers me to a post that has nothing to do with me, narcissism or even tangentially the point over which we were differing.

LP, have you hired Daisuke's first translator?

[LocklandSF]

All class, all the time.

http://tinyurl.com/2k8e2a

[Jim - YF]

"Schilling has now learned better".

And look, Paul's back with us! I guess the anger passed?

Me, I'd probably be pissed too if a Sox fan knocked soda out of my hand when I was 12.

Still, I've worn my Yankee hat into Fenway and people only say things after the 7 inning - when the liquid courage kicks in.

[LocklandSF]

Andrew, I just thought it was funny that you used that example, no offense, just busting your balls. I have been to many Red Sox/Yankees games at Yankee Stadium and the experiences have often been VERY negative, the negativity of the experience is almost always directly proportional to how cheap the seat is. I wouldn't call the real negative stuff "good natured" at all either.

[Nick-YF]

Lockland, I'm in that video. I'm the one sitting down, saying "Guys, can't we all just watch this beautiful game without all the bad words and taunts? I'm sure he's a good guy even if he's from a different part of the country. He's just like you and me. We're all fans of this great sport. Let's root on our teams, and may the best squad win."

The audio is muffled.

[Jim - YF]

Nick = YF = Not angry

[Andrew]

Well, the video you posted was everyone saying "Asshole, asshole" to the asshole Sox fan who wore his Sox hat into the Yankee bleachers, WITH A VIDEO CAMERA. Seriously, what do you expect?

With all that said, though, I also hold contempt for Yankee "fans" who boo A-Rod whenever he does anything but get a hit (seriously, I heard boos when he hit a sac fly once) and even the fans who booed Rivera ever. There are a contingent of media-fueled idiots out there, but thing is that they're concerned with the Yankees, for better or for worse, and not with the Sox. That's the difference.

[SandyAygoSoxfan]

So, by your reasoning Jim, any time a Sox pitcher gives up a HR, it is because of Tek's poor game-calling skills. That is truly outstanding logic, considering Tek is widely considered one of the most prepared backstops in the game.

It appears that you have misintrepreted Curt's post from his blog, which wouldn't be so bad except you keep harping on when "the inevitable happens". Read it over again- the "inevitable" that he refers to is when he throws a pitch he didn't fully commit to, it ends up landing 380' away.

Why do I have a feeling this will fall on deaf ears...?

[Jim - YF]

Andrew speaking the truth! Can get a Amen!?

[lp]

Paul, I wasn't responding to your 4:40 post. Duh. By now I'd hope you know how your site deals with refreshing.

That being said, my point is pretty basic, so much so, even you just might get it.

1. The topic of this thread was Torre's comments about Sox fans, not the fact that it's a two way street. Where did you mention it going both ways in your original post?

2. Basically, Torre is correct and he wasn't taken out of context.

I don't see what's so difficult to get in that. My real question for you is why do you even care what Torre thinks about Red Sox fans? See, that's where the narcissism comes in. I doubt he cares that much about RSN. A reporter asked a question and he gave an honest answer. Too bad it got your titties in a twist. Instead of moving on to substanitive baseball issues you decide to give Torre advice on the last thing he needs advice from you on.

You take it to an emotional level and then you accuse others of being emotional. Man, I'd hate to be Mrs. Paul SF.

[MJDsoxfan]

You guys are so ridiculous. This is the dumbest argument ever. To generalize and try to assess the nature of MILLIONS of people on each side is just a complete waste of time. I am a Red Sox fan, ive met asshole Yankee fans and asshole Red Sox fans...(I havent counted exactly how many on each side) I really cant believe there 80 some odd responses to this. Talking about "anger", anyone who really gets angry at a game they dont even really play in is dumb. Yes i've been frustrated with the sport. I would say more often than not, I get more mad at my own team, than another for not playing well or whatever. Hate's a strong word and if you havent had a lot of experience with real hate, I would hold up on that word...

[Jim - YF]

Schilling is talking about pitch slection and the "inevitable happens" when he listens to Varitek. He can backtrack from that all he want but he's right!

Beckett comes in last year, and no doubt listens to Varitek.

Guess what happens?

If you said the "inevitible happens" - You win!

Beckett doubled his HR rate.

That folks is a tasty trend. You gotta love when a player has nothing besides intangibles and then loses those!

Jason "Mr. Inevitable" Varitek.

Good times!

[Jim - YF]

And lp piling it on (like I'm one to talk)! Can I get another Amen!?

[Devine]

Hmmmm, I'd say my interest in the Yankees is directly correlated to the number of games the Sox are behind or ahead of them.

[Paul SF]

Where did you mention it going both ways in your original post?

"Somehow, I think the resentment is more a two-way street considering the events of a couple years ago."

Right there in black and white, LP. Maybe you should read the posts instead of trying to think up creative ad homenim attacks that detract from your argument.

My real question for you is why do you even care what Torre thinks about Red Sox fans?

I don't know, LP. Why do you care what Sox fans think of Joe Torre? This is Yanksfan vs. Soxfan. Topics involving the Sox and Yankees are fair game, particularly when a member of one of those teams is discussing the fans of the other. For that matter, why does Torre care about Sox fans at all? Is he also narcissistic, by your logic?

[Jim - YF]

MJ - Just for the record Paul was kind enough to throw out "hate" in his post. His problems start there.

Paul (after me, in the mirror) - You're good enough. You're smart enough. And people like you.

Can't we all just get along? Where's the love?

[Jim - YF]

Paul - Torre was asked about the Sox fans. And I think your 95% guess would apply to the number of Yankee fans who would give a rat's ass what Shaky thought of them.

[Paul SF]

Wow, name calling. You sound pretty angry there, Jim. Better watch out...

[Jim - YF]

I call Torre - Tea. Names are descriptive so long as they're not foul.

Like, Mr. Inevitable.

[SandyAygoSoxfan]

Thank you for proving my point, Jim. Sounds like you have some anger issues you should work on.

[Jim - YF]

Proving what point? That Mr Inevitable has a certain intangible quality of calling for homeruns?

[YF]

Luis Figo reads YFSF!

Someone please mention Hitler so we have to abandon this thread. Oh! Wait! I did it! Godwin's Law! That's It! Move along! Thread closed!!!

[Paul SF]

Anyway, let me recap. This debate -- and the corresponding level of discourse --seems to have fallen off track.

I think Joe Torre shouldn't comment on the anger of Sox fans because I think both sides have an equal amount of loathing for each other. Who has more anger (or more arrogance) is pretty silly because we're essentially talking about EEIdiots and WFANatics, none of whom I trust really populate this site. Torre may have been misquoted or taken out of context, and I happen to think he was a bit. But that doesn't change the fact that he has a history of subtly slamming Sox fans generally for something that I believe his own fan base is just as guilty of being -- again, generally.

Some YFs here disagree. They don't think Torre was taken out of context. They think he was dead on, and that Sox fans as a group are angry, angry people -- far angrier toward the Yankees than YFs are toward the Red Sox. I don't think this is true, but again, we're dealing with broad generalizations that really don't tend to apply to the people who populate this site, and thus we're all basically going on our own personal experiences with other SFs and YFs.

Some can argue, and have, that chanting "Yankees Suck" at other sporting events or games when the Yankees aren't even playing is a sign of greater anger. I'd say that's a sign of greater obsession, and it'd be difficult to say the fans participating in those activities are actually angry. Most people I've seen doing that seem to be smiling and having great fun.

I think that about sums up the meat of the arguments, minus the personal attacks, the trolling and the exaggeration. Sorry if I've helped lower the discourse any. I feel somewhat responsible for the tone some of this debate has taken -- though I'm not sure what could have been done differently -- so this is my attempt to at least take back some of that higher ground.

[LocklandSF]

Jim, Posada is not going to the HOF, not a chance, so you're ability to evaluate catchers is questionable at best.

A lot of people in the game, not just Red Sox pitchers, think Tek is an outstanding catcher, so your opinion on the matter means very little.

Is he the best ever? No. Is he without fault? No.

[Jim - YF]

Well, you can start by saying you don't *really* hate the Yankees. That's where it went off-track, IMHO.

Still, pretty funny stuff getting angry at Torre calling you angry. This friends has been a classic day in YF-SF land.

[Jim - YF]

All I know about Mr Inevitable's actual game calling are:

1) Schilling's comment.

2) Beckett last year.

3) The Boston pitching the last few years - consistently below expectations.

Me, those facts speak volumes about the intangibles of Mr. Inevitable.

And Jorge's most similar right now is Fisk. That's a fact. And Jorge has shown no sign of slowing down. Three more years of goodness and he's approaching Coop.

That said - let the record show Jorge was a better hitter than I-Rod and a better defender than Piazza. Third best of this generation but the only one with three rings. And he's still going strong.

Mr. Inevitable belongs nowhere near that discussion - no matter how much RSN wishes his intangibles to be a difference maker. It's like how backup catchers are considered "solid" defensively - because there's nothing else nice you can say about them.

[Josh SF (D1)]

Stop arguing with Jim about Varitek. We know he's wrong. Dead wrong, in fact, which is why there isn't a single YF here agreeing with him. Schill's clarification in the comments section of his blog spoke for itself...and confirmed my interpretation of his post. Ignore the troll.

Let's just agree that both our respective fan bases can be pretty fricken obnoxious--I understood the point of Paul's first post, I don't really see what's so complicated--and ignore the troll. Comparing stories to try and determine which base is worse is pointless and fairly unprovable; most fans of other teams that I've encountered hate us all equally anyway, for what that's worth.

[Paul SF]

The Boston pitching the last few years - consistently below expectations.

Except for, you know, 2002, 2003 and 2004. Sure, but other than that...