Rough Edge On A Gem: Yanks-Rangers G1 Post-Mortem

Wilson Alvarez, throwing for the Chicago White Sox, tossed a no-hitter in his second major league start in 1991. Phil Hughes had his shot at accomplishing that feat tonight, but in fairness still had seven outs to go when he was pulled for what is so far as being called a "left hamstring injury." The last rookie to throw a no hitter was Anibel Sanchez who pitched his gem for the Florida Marlins last season. While Phil made his bid at history, the Yankees took advantage of poor fielding along with inspired hitting to rout the Rangers, 10-1 in a 14-hit barrage.

Those fortunate enough to watch the game saw a masterful performance by the young right-hander. Efficient and controlled, Hughes threw only 84 pitches in seven and one-third innings (edit: 6 1/3)prior to leaving the game (leaving after an 0-2 count foul ball by Mark Teixeira with one away), striking out six while walking three and showing excellent composure. Several Rangers were left shaking their heads after trying to connect with his mix of well-placed changes, curves and fastballs.

ARod and Jorge went 3-4 while Robi went 4-5 with 3 RBIs to highlight an active offense that took advantage when given extra outs due to Texas' rough glove work. We will have to wait at least until tomorrow to learn the opinion of the medical staff, but at least for now, Hughes joins Karstens, Mussina, Pavano, Sanchez, Veras, and Wang as members of the triage club to punch their cards before May Day. All-in-all, it was a great game to watch darkened by the sobering caveat that the stellar performance of Phil Hughes came at the price of yet another wounded starter.

Comments

[Lar]

Nit-ing - it was 6 1/3.

Abreu may be getting better looks, and Robi is getting his hits. Off bad pitching, but whatever momentum works!

Hopefully, this will continue (not the injury part, obviously..)

[Josh SF (D1)]

Yeah...Peter Abraham seems to blame the Yanks for this.

His blog:

"Yes, it’s a left hamstring and it’s a “significant” one according to Brian Cashman and Joe Torre.

Given the Mike Mussina was just out three weeks with a minor tear, you can expect Hughes to be out 6-8 weeks at the very least.

Hughes told us that he reached back on that 0-2 pitch to really bury a curveball to Mark Teixeira. He extended his left leg too much and that’s how he was injured.

Could this have happened in Scranton? Obviously it could have. But Hughes would not have been reaching back to try and make a great pitch to a hitter like Teixeira in Scranton.

There’s a reason prospects pitch in the minors. It’s to develop their bodies along with their skills. Hughes was pitching in high school at this point in 2004. Tonight he was in the majors trying to finish off Mark Teixeira. His arm was ready. His left hamstring wasn’t."

Have to say...Abraham more or less called this one from the beginning. FWIW, Rotoworld says 4-6 weeks for some reason.

[Josh SF (D1)]

Hughes is on Baseball Tonight right now.

Torre's the one who said 4-6...I think Abraham's estimate seems a little more realistic, given the kid's age.

[Andrew]

Abraham can be a real prick sometimes. He's so smug that Hughes hurt himself, but yeah Pete, it could've happened in the minors too. This is in no way on Cashman, unless it's due to the strength and conditioning folks, but then Pete didn't even mention those guys.

[Andrew]

Also, I suppose Wang's and Mussina's hamstrings weren't ready for the majors either. And Karsten's leg. And Pavano's entire body (well, okay, I'll give you that one).

That is really a very disingenuous piece of writing by Abraham, and he didn't call shit.

[Dionysus]

Sox fan here.

I just want to say.. this sucks guys. Your ace was looking beautiful and you guys were clearly earnign the RIGHT to boast over us for a day. A no-hitter form your rookie and a blwon save by Paps. IUt should have been YOUR day.

This sucks for you and I can not feel good about it. Indeed, I'm deeply saddened. Kid deserved more.

[m.g. yanks fan]

yeah, it seemed like he's almost bragging in a way. "told you he would get hurt". it really sucks, and i'm disapointed, but what are you going to do? he'll be back, and this time to hopefully stay.

as for his actual performance, i finally get it. i watched him in spring training and in videos, and could not understand why everyone was so excited. but it made sense tonight. his control is really good. his placement of his fastball was really impressive. it actually reminded me of a young Mussina.

I hope Phil comes back soon, because it was a joy to watch him pitch.

[Josh SF (D1)]

...dude, he pretty much did.

"I don’t buy the notion that he should learn on the job in the majors. That leads to overthrowing and an increased possibility of injury."

That pretty much describes what Hughes says he did in snapping off that curve to Teix. He went too far over his plant leg and overextended. I'm not really a fan of the smugness of his recent post either...but this is exactly what he said he was worried about.

FWIW, you've got my sympathies, too. I want Phil to fail in every aspect of the game, but not because he hurts himself. That just sucks.

And I'm sure they'll be no gloating if, say, Papelbon's day turns out to be more then a hiccup...

[m.g. yanks fan]

yeah, he did overextend...but didn't Mussina too? it's a fluke injury. it'd be different if he hurt his arm.

[Andrew]

Yeah, in the Cashman interview he said he was initially concerned about Hughes' arm, because that's what the concern is when you overthrow, you can blow your elbow.

Pete didn't call shit. His reasoning was that Hughes' hamstring 'wasn't ready' for the majors. His words.

It's like what one guy on the blog posted: If Hughes slipped in the shower, Pete would be making just as much sense if he blamed it on the callup because minor league showers have pads to catch falling prospects, because their balance in slick showers isn't major league ready.

[SF]

Denial, denial, denial.

Look, we don't know if this would have happened in Scranton, so that's kind of a moot point. But Hughes got hurt rearing back and trying to nail a Major League hitter, something that WOULD NOT have happened in Scranton. So there's a reasonable point to be made by Abraham. Where is it written in the pitching injury bible that hamstring injuries are "flukes" and not attributable to overxertion but other injuries, particularly those to arms, are? That's a BS line of reasoning. Any overexertion can lead to injury (legs are vital to a pitcher, just ask Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens), and what Pete is saying is that Hughes was more prone to overexertion in the Majors. He's 100% right.

No matter what, this is a terrible development for both YFs and SFs, any dent in the possibility that the rivalry is talent-fueled and high-level is a blow.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

SF, you and Pete are waaaaaay off base here. Now let me say this I am not arguing your point based on affiliation, it's fact based.

Phil's left leg is his land leg, not his push off leg. So your reaching back theory does not apply. He didn't reach back and push himself into a hamstring injury, it wasn't due to over exertion. Most hamstring injuries, like we discussed when Wang went down, can be tied to uneven ground and landing wrong. Lots of times OF'rs will come up lame running for a ball and stepping on uneven ground. Baserunners sometimes tweak things the same way while running on the dirt. I am not saying you can't hurt your hammy by pushing too hard but in most cases it's caused by landing wrong. IN THIS CASE BEING THAT IT IS HIS PLANT LEG IT HAS ZERO TO DO WITH TRYING TO HARD OR REACHING BACK.

[Lar]

Correlation isn't causation.

[SF]

Trisk:

How do you know that Hughes didn't land wrong because he was tired from overexertion? How do you know that his hamstring wasn't susceptible to injury because his body was being taxed differently? This is absurd: Hughes was hurt, by his own admission, pushing things. I don't hold Pete's stance that this is proof he shouldn't have been called up (I had no argument with that; the Yankees had no options, and Hughes certainly appeared better than any other pitcher available), that is NOT what I am arguing. But Pete's position is still arugable, agree with it or not. Why is his stance dismissed so bluntly? Isn't it at least possible that the circumstances in which Hughes was pitching contributed to his injury, or at least altered the risk factor for injury somewhat (THIS is what I am saying is a reasonable argument, for the record)?

What I am also realizing right now is that the Yankees don't suffer injuries any other way than through "fluke". Wang, Moose, Hughes, you name it: it's a fluke that they got hurt.

I can guess what is next from you guys: saying that JD Drew is injury-prone because he got a virus, deductive reasoning be damned.

[LocklandSF]

Well, what ever it is, who ever is to blame, the Yankees pitching staff if cursed right now, no way around it.

I say you keep your pitchers in a rubber room at the stadium when home, and pack them in bubble wrap on the road.

Can't say I'm not enjoying it a little bit, but it's tempered, they will get healthy and then rip off 25 out of 30 at some point.

[Ric]

so, using the oft used rationale for sox pitching, Hughes no hit bid does not count or really isnt inpressive becasue it was against Texas, right? wake me when he pitches well aginst winning teams...

[Dionysus]

Even as a Sox fan, I must say a no-hit bid like that is impressive no matter WHO you are facing.

[Triskaidekaphobia]

"What I am also realizing right now is that the Yankees don't suffer injuries any other way than through "fluke". Wang, Moose, Hughes, you name it: it's a fluke that they got hurt."

I am not sure what your point is here. Hamstrings are flukes, no other explaination for it. If you want to attribute Moose's to age, go ahead. But Wang jogging? Hughes pulls his land leg? Karstens takes a LD off the leg? Their injuries weren't due to them being stupid or careless.

As for the Hughes thing, speculation is speculation. IMO this had nothing to do with him trying too hard or because he was called up. To be 100% honest I don't care why it happened, only that it happened. Let's agree to disagree on this one.

[tom yf]

who cares. we're sunk.

[SF]

Pete Abe writes that Hughes said he was trying to land his left leg further down the mound to pound the curveball lower on the 0-2 pitch to Tex, this landing caused the injury.

Not that it's a very important argument (it's not), but what I consider flukes are things like Karstens' injury, where the act of pitching isn't what causes said injury - Karstens got hit by a screaming liner (sure, the pitch that he threw led to that screaming liner, you can go as far as you want with it), he had no control over the batter's action. For me, at least, Hughes' injury was very much caused by the act of pitching, he chose to throw that curve, to land further down the mound for a result, the injury occurred during his action of pitching, so that is why I have a hard time terming it a "fluke". Wang, maybe (the hammy, not the fingernail). Moose, nope. But this is subjective and pretty irrelevant, at the end of it all, so we could do this forever and it wouldn't mean much.

[Lar]

What kind of injury (err, other than Kevin Brown smashing something) isn't a fluke?

[Andrew]

Pete's and your argument is entirely specious. Why wouldn't Hughes, a huge competitor, want to bury a curveball against an excellent AAA hitter, to hasten his callup? Do you think Hughes, when called up, wouldn't WANT to bury a curveball against Mark Teixiera? Does more work in the minors somehow prevent pitchers from overextending their knees when eventually called up? I think the most telling thing is that Cashman was initially worried about Phil's ELBOW, not his hamstring, when he heard something was wrong. Young pitchers like Liriano and Felix didn't go down with hamstrings, they went down with elbow problems. Elbow problems were what everyone was worried about, and if you deny that you are a lying sack of shit. Pete is a lying sack of shit, trying to say that he was right all along.

Forget it, SF, this is another one of those fluke injuries. To somehow say the Yankees are responsible by bringing him up 'too early' is one of the stupidest things I've heard you and Pete say, and that is saying something.

[LocklandSF]

If I opened this site up right now and saw a headline that read, "Pettitte out for 6 weeks in a bizarre wood chipper accident" it would not surprise me at all.

Seriously, this is all so crazy it's almost comical...

[SF]

Forget it, SF, this is another one of those fluke injuries. To somehow say the Yankees are responsible by bringing him up 'too early' is one of the stupidest things I've heard you and Pete say, and that is saying something.

I haven't said anything like that (I do not agree with Pete that Hughes never should have been called up, and made that clear above and elsewhere - don't misrepresent my position please) - I have made it clear that I believe that the callup was completely defensible by the Yankees. But to ignore the circumstances behind the injury and just write it off they way it is being written off is unfair, as far as I am concerned. I haven't been a big fan of Abraham lately, but in this case he's not being a "lying sack of shit", he's taking an arguable stance, nothing more. The reaction to that charge by many YFs has been irrational.

[Andrew]

And Ric, no, because while Texas, along with Seattle, has some of the worst pitching in the AL, their offense is no slouch, even if they were slumping recently. What Hughes was doing was very impressive, very few 20 year olds have the command he does, even if his fastball was Mussina-like. Hopefully as he gets older and stronger he gets a little more speed on it, because it's supposed to sit more in the 94-95 range.

And what I mean by 'fluke' is that it's something not due to a pitcher being 'injury-prone'. Sure, Moose and Wang have had injury history, but these injuries had nothing to do with their previous ones. Blaming Cashman for not being prepared to lose 3/5 (plus their number 6 (Karstens) and 8 (Hughes) guys) due to freak injuries all at the same time is very irresponsible. People are saying Cashman relied too much on injury-prone Carl Pavano, and that's true, but Carl Pavano wasn't really the problem. Now, if Mussina went down with elbow soreness and Wang went down with shoulder issues that would be a different story, because they've each had those kinds of injuries in the past. But hammy's are always a freak thing, because they usually don't happen because a guy is injury-prone. Saying Moose had it coming because he's old is also specious, as you've seen young people get them too.

[Paul SF]

Why wouldn't Hughes, a huge competitor, want to bury a curveball against an excellent AAA hitter, to hasten his callup?

Because he'd have the confidence to KNOW he wouldn't need to do that. He'd execute his pitch against a hitter he knew he could beat. To me, the problem isn't whether Hughes was brought up too early. It's just that he was a rookie who tried too hard against a great hitter. It seems that would be likely to happen just as much in the September pennant race or in May of 2008 if Hughes had been called up then. I guess Abraham is saying that Hughes would be better prepared for such a situation then if he had spent more months in the minors, and that may be true, but that seems to be entirely beside the point.

It's tooe arly to tell whether Hughes' injury was a "fluke," though. It's possible that he's more injury-prone than realized, in which case this would not be a fluke at all. So it's a bit early to tell on that front, I think. The only injuries that can be safely and immediately categorized as flukes are HBPs and Karstens-like injuries (or outfielders breaking bones running into walls, that kind of thing), in my opinion.

[Andrew]

But the thing is, SF, is that Pete is NOT taking an arguable stance at all. He's using the fact that Hughes overextended on a curveball to say that he was Right All Along, See? He wasn't, because the concern isn't hamstrings with young guys, it's elbows. Hughes would be overthrowing in the minors to a great AAA hitter too, to hasten his callup, maybe the Yankees should keep him in Charleston to prevent him from seeing any great hitters to overextend on.

The anger from YF at Pete is not really that Hughes was injured, but that Pete is trying to make out very smugly that he saw this coming from miles away, and he really, really didn't. He was concerned about the shoulder and the elbow, and so was everyone. Pete even said that Hughes' hamstring 'wasn't ready' for the major leagues. When you start saying ridiculous crap like that, people are going to get pissed off at you, especially when said person has such a large and frequent reader base.

[DAW]

"But this is subjective and pretty irrelevant, at the end of it all, so we could do this forever and it wouldn't mean much."

No shit.

Can't you just go over to the sox thread and speculate about injury being the possible cause of Paple's bad night or something?

[YF]

I think we're missing the central issues here, and wildly. The question for the Yankees has to be, is there something about the team's training regimen that is leaving the players at risk? The Yanks brought in a new conditioning team this year; presumably the philosophy they endorse runs top down through the minors. While that program is not necessarily the cause of the rash of hammy problems, it is certainly not preventing them. So some kind of new strategy seems in order, as the Yanks have seen older vets, guys in their prime, and youngsters all go down with this problem.

As for Hughes, the argument that he was rushed seems to belie logic. The two performances in the majors demonstrate he was definitively capable of playing at the top level of the game. You can be injured at any level. We can never know if he "over-exerted" because of his inexperience as a major leaguer, leading to the pull. But the fact is that, AT SOME POINT, he was going to have to face his first ML batters, and there's no reason to believe he wouldn't have had the same reaction 3 month later that he had last night. Frankly, if it was going to happen, better that it was going to happen on May 1.

For that matter, the big concern with the Hughes callup was that he would throw too many innings. Assuming he recovers fully, then all this injury will have done was protect his arm long-term. So let's not overreact to it. The future is bright.

[SF]

I leave that to SoSH, Andrews, there's a thread over there about whether or not Paps is injured. I didn't see the game, but I find speculation about whether or not he was injured (when there is no injury reported) to be a bit, uh, speculative. To me, it sounds like he sucked. Which pitchers, even the best of them, do sometimes. I have no clue if he's hurt, no way of knowing. I sure hope he isn't.

As for Cashman not being responsible: entirely agreed (save Pavano, of course). It would have been nice to see this kind of logic afforded to Theo Epstein last year, when the Sox' pitching went down in a heap of injury and illness. On the other hand, you guys are YFs, so what can you do. ;-)

[SF]

The question for the Yankees has to be, is there something about the team's training regimen that is leaving the players at risk?

Very good question. It's a question that comes up whenever a team loses inordinate man-games to injury, in any sport. The training staff comes under fire. In this case, the correlation/causation thing is another easy out, though. How do we know these things? Did Wang train differently in the offseason? Did Moose train differently? Did Guidry alter something?

The problem I have with this debate is that the forensics of these injuries is sophisticated; it IS hard to know what caused these things. But to just call them "flukes" is, to me, a gloss. Many factors may have contributed: training, age, experience, psychology. Yelling "fluke" doesn't get us anywhere, that's my biggest beef. If Papelbon goes down with a knee injury, will it be irresponsible to speculate that he might be making adjustments to his motion to avoid stressing his shoulder? I personally don't think so, and won't be so quick to attribute a non-arm injury to simple anomaly. But obviously we all differ on this.

Anyhow, there's smoke here, so where is the fire? YF may be on to something. Hard to say.

[YF]

SF: To me the issue isn't figuring out if there's a causation issue, it's understanding that there is, clearly, a prevention problem. whatever the yankees are doing to prevent hammy injuries, it is obviously not working. so they need to start doing something that will reduce risk of these injuries.

[Andrew]

Of course, Beckett himself never went down, much to the despair/joy of SFs/YFs, while Sanchez threw a no-hitter and Ramirez put up ROY numbers ;)

[mike a]

To the Sox fan Dionysus:

It was our night. Hughes may be injured but he'll be back, I'm just happy it's in May and not September. Either way, none of that chganges the fact that he gave the rotation a lift and the offense exploded while the "unstoppable" (really?) Papelbon blew a 2 run lead in the 9th up north. I'd say it was still our night.

[Lar]

To be fair, I think the "no hitter" bid probably has more to do with the fact that he's facing major leaguers. A 9 run lead, even in the minors you would want a no hitter, and probably pull back for it.

In either case, at least they don't have to worry about pitch counts when he comes back!

Interesting though, I did the math, and the Yanks have an "expected" (to the good old James formula) of 13-11, which is of some consolation. The Sox are actually even better at 17-8, which would be where they'll be if they didn't blow yesterday's game.

Also of note is that the Yanks are 1-5 in 1-run games, which you can chalk up to not clutch, or just bad luck (according to James..)

Though obviously, it would be better if our pitching is not injured..

[fred_Yf]

Hughes Pitch sequence to Texiera on 7th before He hurts his hammy

First pitch 93 mph Fastball

Second pitch - 93 mph Fastball

Third Pitch - Curveball

[SF]

But YF, if hammy injuries are 'flukes', as many YFs seem to be asserting, how do you prevent them? This seems to be inherently contradictory. If the injuries are unpredictable and not necessarily related to the singular act of pitching or age (as some here would like us to believe), then what program can help stop them?

[YF]

I don't know whether they're flukes or not, and I don't know how to prevent them. I'm not a doctor and i'm not an expert in sports medecine. I would hope that there is a program of stretching and exercise that will help prevent these injuries. Yoga? I don't know. I don't know what measures the team takes now. Obviously, I'd look into it. But there's not much point in speculation without information.

[Andrew]

In minor league Yankee news, Tyler Clippard pitching 7 innings, 1 walk and 11 strikeouts. I would love to see a couple more outings like this in the minors and then see what he can do in the majors.

[sf rod]

once the league gets tape on hughes, they'll figure him out a la okijima. right?

[Andrew]

I imagine they already had significant amounts of tape and scouting reports on Hughes. You don't get to be the top pitching prospect in baseball and get ignored by every major league team.

[Tyrel SF]

"You don't get to be the top pitching prospect in baseball and get ignored by every major league team."

I don't know how many teams do advance scouting on AA pitchers.

[Andrew]

Plenty, when they're looking to trade for him. This is what scouts are PAID to do. To not have a scouting report on the top pitching prospect in the minors would be, well, irresponsible. Hitters were certainly not fighting this guy blind, if that's what you're suggesting.

Or are you trying to make Jon Lester's debut even less impressive?

[SF]

Andrew:

I don't believe that AA pitchers are scouted regularly. Hughes is probably a different story, since he was so highly touted. But just last week when Chase Wright started for the Yankees I saw an interview with Kevin Youkilis who said they had no scouting reports on him, they had just gathered as much tape as possible of him and were going to prepare by viewing the tape.

[LocklandSF]

Wow, you guys have done a hell of a job debating this today, any stone left unturned yet?

[Josh SF (D1)]

Is that a shot at a cancer patient? Great to see a YF handling adversity so well.

No, his debut wasn't particularly impressive. His fastball never touched the 95 it did in the minors--and has so far this season--and his control, which per the bb/9 had never been fantastic, was even worse then usual. But he had f*cking CANCER, and while it may sound like I'm making excuses, no one can speak to what effect it had on his early starts, especially since there's absolutely no way any athlete would use it as an excuse after the fact.

Systemic symptoms often present long before the lymph nodes are noticably swelled, so we just don't know how long he felt ill...he might not even be sure. Far as I'm concerned, he gets a clean slate.

[I'm Bill McNeal]

Injuries happen, period.
And they always happen at bad times.

When Mo Vaughn signed with the Angels, he got hurt right out of the box and never was the same. Some said he wouldn't have been hurt has he stayed in Boston? REALLY? How do you support that?

You don't know that there isn't something physical that led to Hughes' injury, something that would have happened anyway. How do you know he wouldn't have been hurt in Columbus? Pointing fingers for an injury is foolish and unnecessary. Unless the injury resulted from a clearly careless act, trying to assess negligence or intent is just uncalled for.

And YFs, as much as this potentially could help Boston (long and short term), I gotta say, this is a real bite in the ass for you.

[DAW]

"How do you know he wouldn't have been hurt in Columbus?"

I'm 100 percent positive that he wouldn't have suffered this injury in Columbus

[DAW]

(The Yanks no longer have a minor league team in Columbus. They moved to Scranton/Wilkes Barre) :)

[SF]

The stadium is right next to Dunder-Mifflin HQ.

[YF]

it's really not that big a bite in the ass. there's no reason to believe it's a severe long-term injury, or will have any serious affect on Hughes's career. we will miss him for however long he's out, but basically it just serves to reduce his workload for the season, which was the biggest concern in promoting him in the first place. so if he misses 2 months, it might not be such a bad thing. maybe it just means he'll have plenty in the tank when the late-season playoff drive begins.

[SF]

basically it just serves to reduce his workload for the season, which was the biggest concern in promoting him in the first place. so if he misses 2 months, it might not be such a bad thing.

Spin spin spin spin spin spin!!!!

How far have you driven yourself into the ground, YF?! If only you could hear yourself on this one...

[I'm Bill McNeal]

Wow. I hadn't heard. (Stupid Midwest.)
They'd been affiliated with Columbus for as long as I could remember.
I can't believe I had not heard that.

[SF]

Wait, I just realized something: JD Drew's virus means that he's not playing so while he's not playing he can't injure himself more seriously! Yay! I am SO GLAD JD is sick, it means he can't get hit by a pitch, or wreck his knee diving for a ball, or pull a glute, or...Oh, wait, it also means he's NOT PLAYING. I knew something was wrong with this theory.

I love it. It's the old "hey, he hurt himself so he can't hurt himself worse" argument. It's not a strong position, particularly when the player in question looked to be very important.

[YF]

I don't need to hear myself. I can read what I write just perfectly. I'm sorry the kid's going to miss some time but I really don't think, grand scheme, it's too big of a deal. parse it all you want. we'll see how things play out.

[Andrew]

SF, I know, Hughes is obviously the exception because he was scouted. And yet the Texans still couldn't even buy a well-hit ball off of him. It's just a response to a non-sensical troll comment by sf rod anyway.

[DAW]

"we'll see how things play out."

Can we just do that, or will some of us continue to kick Trigger?

[YF]

that's fine sf, but the sox aren't intentionally trying to restrict drew's innings. the more he plays, the better for the sox. that's not the case with hughes. there's a limit to how much he can and should be allowed to play this year, and starting an entire season beginning in april would set him well over it. so while this is clearly not the ideal way to reduce his workload, it's going to reduce it nonetheless. so yeah, i'm sad he's NOT PLAYING, but he would be NOT PLAYING at some point in the season, and it's better he's NOT PLAYING now, rather than when the Yanks are coming into the heat of the pennant race. that's when our young ace will be PLAYING against a red sox team doing its usual post-break collapse. And i guess we'll see if jd is NOT PLAYING at that time. Who knows.

[Tyrel SF]

"I don't know how many teams do advance scouting on AA pitchers."

"Plenty, when they're looking to trade for him. This is what scouts are PAID to do. To not have a scouting report on the top pitching prospect in the minors would be, well, irresponsible. Hitters were certainly not fighting this guy blind, if that's what you're suggesting."

Not to take anything away from his performance, which was stellar, but I don't think your point stands. Few reasons why I think you're off here. First, Hughes has never been trade bait. This guy has been untouchable since he was 18. Second, the type of scouting one does on a top prospect is different than the type of advance scouting teams do on players that they will be facing. Third, a pitcher's in AA often get by on pure stuff, simply because the hitting is pretty poor. Once they reach the pro's they start developing more of a strategy for approaching hitters. This strategy or method for setting up hitters is a significant part of advance scouting reports, because it gives hitters an idea of what to look for in what counts, etc. Fourth, Hughes wasn't supposed to be up until July-August. so teams may have been waiting til this season to work up scouting reports. And fifth, maybe AL East teams would've scouted him, but Texas doesn't face NY again after these two series, so it would'nt have been cost-effiecient to waste resources advance scouting a guy they shouldn't be seeing til 2008.

[SF]

that's when our young ace will be PLAYING against a red sox team doing its usual post-break collapse. And i guess we'll see if jd is NOT PLAYING at that time. Who knows.

It's tough, isn't it, to suppress the d*ckbag YF buried deep in you. Years of therapy seemed to be paying off, but as we know it's hardwired, in the blood. And it's out!

[Paul SF]

that's when our young ace will be PLAYING against a red sox team doing its usual post-break collapse.

SF must have struck a nerve, or something. How else to explain this poorly researched, angry response from YF?

Granted, the Sox did collapse in 2006. But the Red Sox in 2005 actually had a better record in the second half of 2005 (.613 winning percentage) than in the first (.563). In 2004, of course, they posted a winning percentage 100 points better in the second half.

It's to the Yankees' credit, of course, that they rallied in 2005 to tie the Sox at the end of the season. But it's hardly a collapse to play .600 baseball and lose a whopping two games in the standings. At any rate, why deny the Yankees that credit in favor of the more traditional -- and incorrect -- interpretation?

[sf rod]

"a non-sensical troll comment by sf rod anyway."

it was all peaches when the excuse was used for okijima. i guess no one in the states is able to break down tape from japan. your YES announcers are certain hitters will figure okijima out once teams get footage of him.

who knows, maybe the rangers vcr was broken this week.

[Andrew]

Breaking News: Yankees fire Marty Miller, the strength and conditioning coach who hadn't worked in baseball for 10 frickin years before being inexplicably hired by Cashman.

I hope they go back to the guys they had before. At least there was only one hamstring injury (Robbie) last year. And I'd rather lose Robbie again than any of Wang Pettitte or Moose.

[Lar]

It seems like SF loves to piss all over some optimism from the YF. Ah, mental masturbation where you can get it!

[Lar]

In the meanwhile, Matsuzaka has a 4.36 ERA. Looks like the Yanks saw enough of him!

[Andrew]

Also, on the other hand YF, Hughes might not be able to reach his allotted 180 IP this year due to his injury. If he's out till July, I think it's estimated he gets a net total of something like 160 IP, which would put him right back where he started this year in terms of season-long endurance, and the Yankees would have to endure another season of waiting for their ace-in-the-making to toughen up to 220 IP level.

[Lar]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/sports/baseball/03miller.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

Miller firing article.

[YF]

Right. It's my inner attitude problem on display here. Because I'm the one fanning the flames. God help the off-line email i'd get it i ever suggested SF was a dickbag. (why don't we just come out and say it!)

The post-break collapse line was a joke, based on history. it doesn't need a statistical analysis paul.

i think if you look at the end of last night's sox thread you'll see where this animosity is coming from. so many nastiness by sfs on the sox. even when the yanks are blowing games, it's not that bad from yanks fans. sheesh.

those who live in glass houses.....

[Paul SF]

In the meanwhile, Matsuzaka has a 4.36 ERA. Looks like the Yanks saw enough of him!

Yeah, Lar, those were some tough losses for Mats-- oh, wait...

[Lar]

Ya, all Matsuzaka has to keep doing with his 10 runs in 13 innings against the Yanks is that the Yanks pitching keep on sucking!

[SF]

Which is better?

1. Healthy pitcher, innings-restricted, shut down when team sees fit to control exposure. Availability at control of team.

2. Pitcher snaps hammy, innings-restricted via unforeseen (and not insignificant) problem with leg muscle. Availability at control of nobody.

I think I know how I would answer. On the other hand, I am sure glad that Jon Lester got cancer last year and therefore didn't have the chance to f*ck up his elbow. Phew.

As for "last night's game thread", I wasn't involved, YF, so direct your anger elsewhere, please. This is, once again, a case of a legitimate debate being manhandled into some "SFs are SO MEAN" BS. Nothing said here (at least in my mind) has been that controversial, and my take on Hughes was the same as yours. There's an intent, it seems, to shut down debate when a Yankee player is involved. Hughes up too early? Stay away! Hughes hurt because of the situation? Not debatable! Hughes' injury a good thing? Of course, how dare you think that an injury is bad! Hughes' situation discussed by, wait for it, a Sox fan? Rag on JD Drew, the Sox' history, then claim you were kidding!

Puh-leeze.

[Lar]

"it might not be such a bad thing"

is not quite

"a good thing"

Stop trying to create end of the world scenarios!

[Paul SF]

I'm honestly confused by your comments about the thread, YF. Could you explain? I thought you were angry about alleged SF glee at Hughes' injury (which did not take place), but then it looks like you're saying Sox fans are meaner to their team when they lose than Yanks fans are to theirs. Which is fine, but then I'm not sure how that factors into the current debate.

[SF]

True enough, Lar, that's my changing of the words.

But I just can't help but sense some desperation in trying to find the silver lining here. I think that sometimes bad things happen, and they are just plain bad. In this case it feels like the necessity to squeeze some sort of collateral benefit out of a bad situation is revealing some desperation, which frankly I understand, and doesn't need to be obfuscated.

[YF]

SF, how many straw men do you need to set up in one comment? that's so disgraceful. obviously choice 1 is preferable--nowhere do i suggest otherwise--but that's not the option the yankees have right now, so it's irrelevant.

the comparison to lester is specious. i've never even addressed lester here, so i'm not sure why you feel the need to tar me with that comparison by association.

the sarcastic comment about drew was a response to your own comment about drew, and the sarcastic comment about the sox collapsing was a sarcastic response to your meanspirited post (note: i had never brought up drew before this; i have much respect for him--though he was certainly taking a lot of incredibly vitriolic crap during the yankee/sox threads--from sox fans.)

in any case, don't call me a dickback. i don't have an inner "dickbag." all yankee fans don't have inner "dickbags." don't call other people dickbags and then whine that your "legitimate debate" is being "manhandled" into a flame war. you bring it on yourself, 1000 percent.

[SF]

So we're even: I guess you took it seriously (and not as a joke) when I referred to your "years of therapy to suppress the "inner d*ckbag"? You're kidding, right!?

My God, you are ridiculous today!

[I'm Bill McNeal]

Group hug time.

[SF]

I ain't hugging that d*ckbag!

;-)

[Josh SF (D1)]

"note: i had never brought up drew before this; i have much respect for him--though he was certainly taking a lot of incredibly vitriolic crap during the yankee/sox threads--from sox fans."

What? He was mired in an awful slump...nothing anyone said was any harsher then all the "Bobby Abreu: Rally Killer" quips from your side.

As for yesterday's game, I'm probably the one you're accusing of being overly vitriolic and negative. And ah, yeah, I'm negative...in that I'm never optimistic in-game, if that makes any sense. And FWIW, most of what I say that comes across as negative is often realism shrouded in anger...or at least I like to think it is. Like seeing the truth and really disliking it. Hehe.

Papelbon's blown save in and of itself isn't really an issue--sh*t happens, nobody's perfect--but if you'd watched the game, and seen how little command he had and the 4-5 mph he lost on all his pitches, you'd understand why there was some freaking out. Nobody was down on him as a player, period, but when a guy's got a history of shoulder problems and he looks THAT bad on two days rest, you worry.

[QuoSF]

I'm going to ignore all the Paps stuff at this point and just say this:

Deepest sympathies to YFs. I only got to see the highlights on Baseball Tonight (without sound, i.e. without Kruk et stupid al), but he (Hughes) looked fantastic, delivering on all the promise in one night.

[Andrew]

Well d1, regarding Paps, I'll point you to Rivera, who looked equally bad (no command, no velocity) on more than 2 days rest...and now he's fine. I know how you feel, is one of the most valuable members of the team now injured, but I would say don't worry unless the Sox actually come out and say something. Because if Paps was injured, you'd hear about it.

[Josh SF (D1)]

Yeah, I'm far less concerned now then I was then. If he'd done ANYTHING different after the game--talked to a trainer, rubbed his shoulder, etc--one of the members of the rabid Boston press corps would have seized on it. We'll see what happens tomorrow or Friday, because I don't think there's any chance he throws today since he threw 35 pitches yesterday.