Misdirection and Propaganda

Whom to believe? No one.

The Minnesota Star-Tribune reports the Twins never received a "hard deadline" from the Yankees.

The Boston Globe says the Twins really like Justin Masterson.

ESPN.com and Baseball Prospectus both say the Twins may not trade Santana at all.

Don't buy any of it.

Comments

[sam-YF]

im sick of the twins. Our teams along with the rest of baseball have other business to attend to. They need to make a decision based on the offers. Waiting for more days isnt gonna change what is being offered. If they dont like it, move along for now, revisit it again later once things have played out. I think the rookie GM is spinning his wheels...

[Paul SF]

I agree, Sam. I wonder if he is honestly torn by the proposals, doesn't know which to pick and is hoping/praying someone makes it easy for him.

For a while, it looked like the Twins were masterfully playing the sides against each other. But I think any of us could have gotten the Yankees to include Hughes and the Sox to include Ellsbury. Those were no-brainer decisions for both clubs. Now that the teams have dug in and said, "Make your choice," the Twins seem to have no plan.

They really like Masterson, huh?

Why is it that all the positive reports from the Twins side come down on the Sox players? They really like Ellsbury, even over Hughes. Now they really like Masterson. How does that gain them any leverage with the Sox at all? If anything, it would make the Sox MORE reluctant to part with these guys. Why trump up their value if you want them?

Either Bill Smith is a huge idiot, or he's trying to squeeze more out of the Yankees. Either way, they shouldn't (and most likely won't) buy it. Their other top prospects can and should be used for guys like Huston Street. Huston Street, the young 24-year old closer from Oakland. Who would immediately fill a much-needed setup role for the Yankees. GET HIM!

[AndrewYF]

ugh, Typepad. ^me

[Mike YF]

I honestly wonder if they were prepared to keep Santana all along, unless they were blown away by an offer. And the demands could have been for exactly that. The Young trade was made to replace the offense lost with Hunter. They're thinking: Blow us away or we'll contend, then take the draft picks.

You could argue that Hughes and Melky are equal to two picks (though they'd have to pay the bonuses). Same deal with Ellsbury and Lowrie.

We'll find out soon enough. I hope!

[Devine]

Quit holding my attention hostage, you bastards!

[DAW]

I hate this - it's not a trade negotiation, it's a stickup...

...And after the robbery, the victim, has to fork out 25M a year for 6 or more years to that most fragile of humans - a starting pitcher...

THIS SUCKS

[dc]

well, it's still about who blinks first...the yanks have said they want to move on and the twins should make up their mind...seems like a reasonable request...the risk is that the sox then emerge as the only visible trading partner...playing the sox and yanks against each other?, well, the twins have milked this cow dry...if they are serious about trading santana, they should make their demands clear, assuming neither the sox or yanks "final" offers are acceptable, and get it over with...i give hank credit for being the first to express his displeasure with the twins bs...

[AndrewYF]

Picks are not as valuable to the Twins as they are to teams like the Yankees or the Red Sox. They almost never go 'above-slot', or really take appropriate risks. They're a cost-conscious team through and through, and as a result they are mediocre. Plus, Hughes is the top pitching prospect in the game. You'd be very lucky to get a first round pick that's not maybe in the top 5, and end up with that. Plus, add in the fact that Santana and Nathan could sign with a team that performed badly in 2008, and you get only sandwich picks and their second round. And if they sign with the same team, you only get one set of picks.

Hughes and Melky are worth far, far more than draft picks.

[John - YF]

"im sick of the twins. Our teams along with the rest of baseball have other business to attend to."

Amen Sam. We need to take a long hard look at the bullpen. As well as addressing the possible hole in CF. I like Johhny Damon, but I would much rather have someone else patrolling CF next season if we do lose Melky. I know here come the numbers on how good Johnny Damon is in CF and that he hasn't declined, bla bla bla. You have invested ALL this money in the team, assuming the Santana trade ever happens, to settle for Damon's defense in CF. Same could be said for a subpar bullpen. If the Yankees land Santana this will be a different $200+M Yankee team then in the past. They would actually have (on paper) the best offense and top 5 staffs in the game. Santana is not Kevin Brown or Unit, he legitamizes all the other spending and puts the team in another level. Unlike the additions in the past. Long story short, don't be cheap now you spent, keep spending and make this team complete.

[Paul SF]

Never mind that the Sox would really like to be able to shop Coco Crisp at the meetings, but first need to know whether they can, and they can't now that until they find out whether Jacoby Ellsbury can net Johan Santana... Please, let it end tonight.

Then the Dan Haren rumors can start! *gag*

[SF]

I thought you young guys loved the hot stove!

No patience, I say. Kids today...

;-)

[Dionysus]

If Im the Sox, starting Tuesday morning, I pull Ellsbury fromt he offer and offer 'only' Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson (yes Masterson). If the Yankees ARE stepping back from the table, this'll win out anyway.. if not, I still think it has a decent chance of trumping Hughes+Melky+Crap (which is what teh Yanks say they are offering).

Frankly I dont expect the Yanks to completely pull away if a deal isnt reached, but I *DO* expect them to yank Hughes off the table and the Sox shoudl follow suit with Jacoby.

As everyone else has said, the Twins are really pissing me off. Get this over with already!

[sam-YF]

the third layer in the yankees trade is not "crap", the players being talked about are still decent prospects just not the very best ones.

[John - YF]

Rumor has ot the White Sox want Coco.

[AndrewYF]

He could net Mackowiack, maybe. The White Sox are AWFUL.

[SF]

Enough of this baseball stuff, it's time to watch the Pats!

[AndrewYF]

F the Pats.

[yankeemonkey]

Gaaaaargh. I get back and the only news is...there is no news?!

C'mon front office people, this is killing us. Get this done...or not done...so we can all move on with our lives!!!

[AndrewYF]

Yeah, that's right. Go Ravens. I do not want to hear about the Patriots for the next 10 years. I await the game where the Colts oust the Patriots from the postseason.

[Ric]

"Yeah, that's right. Go Ravens. I do not want to hear about the Patriots for the next 10 years. I await the game where the Colts oust the Patriots from the postseason."

could you imagine if the Pats won 26 superbowls and you had to listen to their fans brag about it like a personal accomplishment?

[Paul SF]

Kepner:

"The Yankees and the Twins had not met as of 7:30 p.m., and it was obvious that the Twins were not eager to accept the Yankees’ offer of Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and a midlevel prospect. Privately, the Yankees have interpreted the Twins’ nonresponse as a rejection of the offer and a signal that Minnesota intends to keep Santana."

http://tinyurl.com/2uw22h

Matthew Cerrone/MetsBlog:

"…the word from Nashville, from a few different corners, suggests that the Twins are once again contacting teams, other than the Yankees and Red Sox, to discuss offers for Johan Santana…

…it is sounding to me like a trade with either boston or the bronx may have been close, and ready to be announced tonight, but now it temporarily is off the table…

…additionally, from what i can gather, santana would rather play for the Red Sox, followed by the Mets, then the Yankees ..."

Not sure how reliable Cerrone is -- or, for that matter, who he is. But he seems to be in Nashville, which is at least one step ahead of us. :-P

[Paul SF]

Forgot the link to MetsBlog: http://tinyurl.com/2ty7pl

[yankeemonkey]

My family lives in Nashville, maybe I should dispatch my dad to Opryland to investigate on location...

[sam-YF]

who the hell is Cerrone?

[AndrewYF]

Abraham said at 10:14 that the Twins and Yankees were meeting tonight, so one of them is mistaken. I think I'll guess Cerrone.

[Paul SF]

Me too. I simply don't believe the Twins will snub the best offers they will ever get for Santana for the unlikely chance they can compete in 2008.

[sam-YF]

im sure matthew cerrone has the info on Johan Santana's preferences as far as who he wants to play for since he has so many connections within Johan's inner circle. id be surprised if johan even has made a list like this for himself.

[Paul SF]

Stark:

"the Twins and Yankees were getting nowhere Monday night in their attempt to complete a deal for Johan Santana. So the Yankees were again making noises that they might pull out of the Santana talks for good.

According to baseball officials who were aware of the talks, the Twins again asked the Yankees on Monday night for pitcher Ian Kennedy -- a pitcher the Yankees have insisted for several days that they wouldn't trade -- as the third player in their proposed deal. The Yankees apparently turned down that proposal immediately."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3140498

I still don't believe it, but bully for the Red Sox if the Yankees do pull out.

[sam-YF]

i dont think the yankees pulling out means the Twins take whatever the sox will offer. If they are so stubborn on these extra players with the yanks, Id think they would be the same for the Sox, demanding an extra player too.

[Tyrel SF]

"could you imagine if the Pats won 26 superbowls and you had to listen to their fans brag about it like a personal accomplishment?"

or even worse, if your great-grandkids had to listen to tales of their storied history?

[Paul SF]

I agree, Sam, but the Red Sox win in any situation that does not involve the Yankees getting Johan Santana (unless the Yankees give up Hughes and Kennedy for him).

[AndrewYF]

Man, the Ravens really just handed it to them on a silver platter. What a disgraceful sports city.

[sam-YF]

I agree with that too. Im interested to see if the Twins overplayed their hand.

[Paul SF]

I don't know why it took me so long to make the connection, but I was just in Nashville last week! Even went to Opry Mills Mall, right across the street from the Opryland Hotel (which is just enormous, btw. It has its own river -- with tour boats -- inside).

Should have gone this week to see my parents. Maybe I can send my dad out and get some scoops, too...

[yankeemonkey]

Going to Opryland Hotel was a very strange experience....There was this weird woman on stilts who was dressed up like a tree, who'd stand still for a while, then start doing slo-mo gymnastics, then freeze again. Weird.

The Country Christmas was neat, though.

[Paul SF]

Jacoby Ellsbury's new agent?

Scott Boras. Greeeaaaaat...

[yankeemonkey]

It's 12am - do you know where your Santana is?

[Paul SF]

The deadline has expired.

Taking the Yankees at their word, I guess that means they won't be trading for him. ;-)

[Paul SF]

Incidentally, I love the headlines on the Google News feed:

"Red Sox remain mum on Santana"
"Yankees mum on Santana details"

[sam-YF]

yeah i noticed that too paul, hilarious. Lots of cheap champagne being drank down there...

Also, this just in from the sox officials...

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-winterdayone120307&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[Paul SF]

Brown:

"The Twins, meanwhile, appeared to treat the Yankees deadline with something between irritation and bemusement, while continuing to shop Santana to the likes of the Boston Red Sox, New York Mets, Los Angeles Dodgers, Seattle Mariners and, perhaps, the Detroit Tigers and Arizona Diamondbacks.

The Yankees remained Santana's most likely destination into the evening, because they have just enough disposable prospects to get him and all of the disposable income to carry the resulting contract extension.

Said one general manager: "I don't think Boston's really for real in that."

Indeed, by late Monday night, a Red Sox official believed the Yankees and Twins were "very close" to completing the trade."

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-winterdayone120307&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[Paul SF]

Ha, you beat me, Sam!

Of course, I can think of plenty of motivations for a Sox official to say that -- and not necessarily mean it, hehe.

I really thought the deal would be done well before now, one way or the other.

And since we're tossing around wild speculation, the MLB Trade Rumors guy says he has a source that says the meeting between the Twins and Yanks ended in a standoff. Not sure whether he was being facetious...

[yankeemonkey]

Yanks make a trade!!!!

http://tinyurl.com/ypgsmp

[Dionysus]

Wait.. what? NOt cool YM. Not cool.

[Dionysus]

Oh I scroleld down enough now. They did make a trade.. of sorts.
*punches YM anyway*

[yankeemonkey]

Had to be done, Dio!

;-D

[sam-YF]

Sick trade for the yankees there. Im sure the SFs out there are trembling in their boots.

[sam-YF]

Albaladejo's ERA is much better than Papelbon's. I think this was a steal.

[Dionysus]

Ok.. Im giving this 30 more minutes then I'm assuming it aint happening. Here's to Theo IMMEDIATLY withdrawing Jacoby and sticking to Lester ONLY. I would howver offer Masterson instead of Bowden, since the Twins do what him more. If the Yanks ARE out of it, it'll be the best teh Twins get.

[Dionysus]

Your MOM's ERA is much better than Papelbons!

Wait.. thats not as insulting as I had thought... dammit.. hold on... lemme start over... hmmm...

[sam-YF]

If the yanks are out of it and then the sox drop their offer, the yanks will come right back in. Its the walk out, standard negotiation tactic, I used it many times to buy counterfit crap when i was in china.

[Paul SF]

The New York writers must be chasing the meeting story. Nary a word on the blogs from the Times, Post, Daily News, Newsday.

Pete Abe comes through with a post saying:

"No update in Nashville, although it’s now Tuesday and Hank Steinbrenner’s deadline has come and gone.

The Twins have pushed for Ian Kennedy as the third man in and were turned down. The Red Sox seem content only to hang around to make sure the Yankees pay a hefty price. If there is a third team (the Mariners? the Angels?) they haven’t made themselves known."

I think this meme about the Sox just being in it to drive up the price is a bit too overused and convenient. The Yankees have drawn the line at including two of their yop three prospects but are presumed to really want Santana. Why shouldn't the Red Sox do the same and also really want Santana?

[QuoSF]

I thought the Yankee Clippard was a serious contender for the Yanks rotation? Or trade bait for Santana? Or maybe I'm just baiting here...

Anyway, yeah. I was out in the Opryland area today. Didn't get to the Hotel though.

[sam-YF]

Paul its not just the reporters though. Lots of other officials have said they believe the same thing is going on. But generally, I think its hard to believe that the sox arent actually interested in trading for Johan. I hope we never know for sure.

[Paul SF]

The Herald says the Sox were linked with Bedard more and more throughout the day. Not buying that one either though... Not with what the O's want.

[TJ]

I saw something Sunday or early Monday that said the Mariners were out of it.

[Paul SF]

Meh, lots of "officials" thought the Sox were just bidding high for Daisuke to keep him away from the Yankees, too.

Steve Phillips used to be an official. Dusty Baker, too (and he is again). Being closer doesn't necessarily make you smarter...

[sam-YF]

like i said Paul, im not buying it either.

[Paul SF]

Oh, good point made on SOSH:

Nashville is Central time. Still 25 minutes left out here in the heartland. :-)

Stark:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3140498

"Shortly before midnight, a Yankees official told AP that no deal was imminent and New York thought Minnesota would hold onto Santana for now. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the Yankees didn't make any public statements."

We haven't heard from the Red Sox in a VERY long time. Almost all the leaks have been from the Twins or Yankees, and they've pretty much all been about the Yanks' offer. Maybe the Sox just haven't done anything since their last offer, but it seems sometimes that the less people talk, the more is going on...

Or maybe I'm just thinking wishfully. :-)

[QuoSF]

The question is, Paul, in what time zone was the hot air from the windbag blowing?

[sam-YF]

or maybe everyone is asleep but us.

[Paul SF]

Cafardo also checks in with a "no word" from Nashville about the Twins-Yankees meeting, except for indications the Yanks refused to include Kennedy, etc.

[QuoSF]

I dunno about that sam. I live very close to Nashville. It's like a non-stop party out here.

[Paul SF]

Silverman on the Herald's blog:

"NASHVILLE — The Yankees’ attempt to trade for Johan Santana could be reaching its final hour and there are plenty of recent signs that, just like the Ravens, the Yanks could fall short of their goal."

But he goes on to just quote the AP/Stark report at ESPN.com.

"The Red Sox remain in the picture, although there are no current developments to report about any contact they have had with Minnesota here this evening."

[Paul SF]

Whereabouts near Nashville do you live, Quo?

[sam-YF]

my refresh button just broke.

[Paul SF]

lol, Sam, I'm getting frustrated at my laptop because the mouse buttons aren't clicking fast enough...

[Paul SF]

The Seattle PI, in reporting the M's are all but out of the sweepstakes:

"There were rumblings early Monday that the Twins were leaning toward keeping Santana, who would become a free agent after 2008, but the latest word is that they're far enough down the road that a trade is going to happen, almost certainly with the Red Sox or Yankees."

Big breaking news there...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/342187_mari04.html

[QuoSF]

Franklin, about 20 miles south.

[yankeemonkey]

I think my laptop is about to go on strike and/or explode. Or at least the Apple+R buttons...

[Dionysus]

UCant.. wait.. need.. news..

urge to kill... rising

[Paul SF]

Oooh, you have a Mac, YM? What kind?

Cool, Quo, my parents are in Old Hickory, just east.

[yankeemonkey]

An iBook. It's old but still chugging along...

[Dionysus]

*rewatches teh Sweeny Todd trailer to distract himself*

[sam-YF]

People still use PCs?!

[Paul SF]

The Star-Tribune and Pioneer Press blogs are worthless. No posts at the S-T since midday today, none in St. Paul since Nov. 30. That's just criminal, if you ask me.

[Paul SF]

My Mac Mini's monitor is on the fritz so I'm using the wife's PC laptop. I miss my Mac :-(

[sam-YF]

I think Twins fans are just more laid back. Its not like if we waited til the morning the news would change.

Hey YM, you were the person who worked at Sloan right?

[Dionysus]

This is one fo the few times I actually use espn.com

I'm also using the dreaded Yankee Den of Lohud, only because I KNOW Pete will update

[Dionysus]

Its not as big a deal fro the Twins fans, who are probably resigned to losing Johan. For us, its about one versus the other. Yansk vs Sox. As always

[sam-YF]

I think it was interesting that Pete said he couldnt get in touch with the yankees. That means they must be finalizing an agreement with twins right???

Any more tea leaves you'd like me to read?

[QuoSF]

What Sam said. PCs? WTF?

(Mac mini and powerbook g4 over here)

[yankeemonkey]

Yep, Sam, that's me.

[Dionysus]

SOunds liek the DID connnect at 1250, so if there was news Pete'd know it

[Paul SF]

The last five minutes: More proof that the smartest people in the world root for the Sox and Yankees.

Of course we're also staying up like it's the end of the world to see if a baseball player gets traded or not, sooo...

[sam-YF]

what lab YM?

iBook g4...Buying myself a shiny MacBook Pro next spring, though.

[yankeemonkey]

Sam: Eric Holland.

Paul: not even funny. The last few days my productivity at work has been all shot to hell. Looks like more of the same tomorrow (today). Meh.

[sam-YF]

MacBook Pro 15" over here. My old 12" macbook died a month ago.

[Paul SF]

Another reason to trade for Santana: His 184 OPS+ in 2007. Sick.

[sam-YF]

YM I came pretty close to rotating in his lab. You guys do cool work. Im friends with Amanda.

[Dionysus]

Well.. 1:01. Is that it?

[Paul SF]

I still have my old iMac I bought as a sophomore in college. Still works, except the fan broke and it works slower than Johan Santana trade news...

[sam-YF]

if they are still talking no its not it. if they arent, then thats it for now. The yankees are out until they are back in is my guess.

[Dionysus]

Are we gonna be subject to a slew of "slower than Johan Santana talks" from now on? I bet they'll be everywhere

[Paul SF]

Edes:

"So, does the clock run out on the Twins to get something done with the Yanks? Steinbrenner insisted his deadline was real, but of course, there's no reason to be imposing artificial deals.
The Sox, meanwhile, may be content to let the Twins pass on their offer of Jacoby Ellsbury or Jon Lester but not both, as long as they know Santana isn't going to New York."

Don't know if he's just speculating or subtly passing along information, but that sentence sounds like the Sox might be willing to up their offer if the Yanks were inclined to up theirs...

[Dionysus]

You know.. as much as, if Im a Sox fans I perfer Ells over Lester to stay on my team.. if I was a Twins guy I think I'd perfer the Lester Package as it address more issues overall.

[yankeemonkey]

This whole affair would make a great case study for game theory fans.

Sam: yeah, our lab is pretty neat. I'm almost done though - writing my dissertation now. Wheee! What will happen first: Santana news breaks or YM graduates? Oh the suspense...

[sam-YF]

I think the Twins are nuts to pass up Hughes. I realize I am biased but still this guy has been a top 3 pitching prospect for the last 2 years.