Blackballed at the 21 Club

He should have worn a jacket.

Comments

[sam-yf]

who he?

[TJ]

i dont get the thread?????

[sf rod]

you guy's don't get it? latroy hawkins stop spitting on paul o'neill today.

[TJ]

ohhh duh and i had read about that earlier too.... man lol

[rz-yf]

Am I the only one who thinks our brethren might have been a little too tough on Mr. Hawkins? I mean, yes, it was Paul's #, but it's not like its been retired.

Am I gonna get beaten up now?

[no sleep til brooklyn sf]

I love how no one cares he's wearing Roger's old number- 22. hehe, not a peep.

[John - YF]

He was only wearing #21 to honor Roberto Clemente. Like the guy or not, this was not the correct way to treat him.

[A YF]

There's way too much being made of this, but a few points:

1) Like it or not, player numbers have always been for fans and broadcasters. That was their original intent and that's still their primary use.

2) With that said, player's can honor anyone they want, but within reason. And there's no better judge of what's within reason than the fans. It's not like players are looking at the back of their own jerseys, or each others', while they play.

3) Hawkins tried to do something he thought was nice. He was rebuffed by the fans. But the reality, is that a journeyman relief pitcher took #21. Does anyone really think the fans would have said a peep if Melky took the number for the exact same reason?

NStB - When are the Sox going to release #21 back into circulation? It's only been 12 years. Or are they looking forward to the day when it's retired at Fenway? hehe.

[A YF]

Great piece on Manny (and his relationship with A-Rod) in the Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/sports/baseball/17redsox.html?ref=sports

If there's one thing I'm sad about it's that the kid from Washington Heights never got to wear pinstripes.

[no sleep til brooklyn sf]

I honestly don't think Sox fans would care if another player wore 21 by now and I doubt they'd boo the player if he came on the field wearing it. The day may come when it gets retired but it doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to.

[A YF]

You guys would know better how SFs would respond to #21 going out again. While I think the current discussion of #21 is being overblown, it will pale in comparison to that one.

A better comp though to O'Neill is probably #33 (Varitek) or #34 (Ortiz). Neither will make the HOF and neither will have won significant awards while with the club. But both were very central to World Championships. The Sox may retire both numbers even as Varitek is more likely. Still, can any SF here tell me with a straight face that some SFs wouldn't boo #34 going out to a journeyman relief pitcher in 2020 after a eight year hiatus?

[Lar]

Ya, one of the things I hoped for a few years back, before the Sox won in 2004, was that the Yanks would've picked up Manny. If I remember correctly, they kept on putting him on waiver of some sort that if the Yanks won, could've had him for 17 mil (or so) a year. A bargain in retrospect, even though I love Matsui.

The rest, they say, is history..

[SF]

Still, can any SF here tell me with a straight face that some SFs wouldn't boo #34 going out to a journeyman relief pitcher in 2020 after a eight year hiatus?

I have no energy for booing a player wearing a former player's number if that number isn't retired. This is a trap, this question A YF poses, all he is looking to do is create an argument where he can accuse SFs of disingenuousness or intellectual dishonesty (hence the "straight face" quip, which colors the debate instantly). Don't fall for it. In any case, why would a fan boo a player for picking an available number? If the team doesn't retire it it is available. What if that player wanted to honor Ortiz? Or what if they grew up wearing #34 and this has been their number all along, or what if they are just coming to the majors unproven and this has been a lifelong dream and 34 has been their number from childhood since they idolized David Ortiz when they were 11 years old and chose that as their jersey? Seriously, I can't figure out any reason whatsoever why that would be a reasonable, valid, or even predictable response to a player on the team you root for. Booing them because they chose a number? Seriously?

If Paul O'Neill or anyone else has an issue with Hawkins wearing "21" as if it is an insult to them, they have a serious narcissism problem or just screwy priorities as far as I am concerned. Sox fans who get exercised about the same situation occurring in Boston, should it happen with anyone down the road, will be equally misguided. This is a ridiculous issue.

[A YF]

How the hell do you know what my motives are? Sheesh. You have no idea.

Being at the Stadium this year, I had a chance to boo Hawkins and I didn't. But I can certainly understand why he has been. He may have respected the history of baseball in America but he didn't understand the recent history of baseball in the Bronx. Again, to me, it's NOT a big issue. But I can certainly see why folks would boo a journeyman relief pitcher representing, in some small way, a Yankee legend.

Really, there's absolutely no difference with a hypothetical involving Ortiz and #34. Sure, I can see the Sox in an act of "serious narcissism...or just screwy priorities" retiring his number. But if they don't, SFs would have every right to boo if they gave #34 out to a journeyman relief pitcher - hiatus or not.

And that's really my point. It wasn't so much #21 - it was #21 going to LaTroy Hawkins. Melky (or better Joba) gets the number and there's no problem.

Meanwhile, #21 has been "available" in the Sox organization for 12 years. Why not give that out? What are they waiting for?

[A YF]

One more thought: Numbers mean far more to fans than they do to anyone else. Like I said, numbers were originally and exclusively for the fans. And now we buy them by the millions and regularly wear them on our backs. To call any fan "misguided" for their emotional attachment to a number shows a complete lack of baseball history and the relationship between fans and the game.

[A YF]

Oh, and the "straight face" bit referred to TJ LOLing above. This discussion had already been colored by the time I got to it. Thanks for needlessly flaming though.