Just How They Drew It Up

In a way, J.D. Drew's selection as MVP of the final All-Star Game at Yankee Stadium was the most fitting end to both the game and what it represented -- the closing of the Stadium era.

The Red Sox and Yankees are inextricably linked, have been since 1901, when the Boston Americans opened their season against John McGraw and the Baltimore Orioles, already Boston's closest rivals. When the Orioles moved to New York, the rivalry only strengthened, and though dreadfully one-sided for much of its history, there's never been a relationship quite like the one between the Red Sox and their fans and the Yankees and their fans.

After all, each club opened its ballpark against the other: In 1912, the Red Sox opened Fenway Park by beating New York, and in 1923, the Yankees opened their new Stadium by defeating Boston.

The best moments for the clubs have often been in each other's ballparks, and the parks themselves have become symbols of the rivalry -- as much a focus of the debate as the performance of the clubs they house. Bucky Dent's famous home run might have been an out in New York (would have been, if you believe the cries of the day); Curt Schilling bled through his sock on the Yankee Stadium mound.

So in a rivalry in which the Yankees celebrated the 1978 division-clinching win at Fenway, and in which the Red Sox clinched the 2004 pennant in the Bronx, it's fitting that this final All-Star Game featured what it did -- a plethora of Red Sox, a plethora of boos and a plethora of controversy.

Yes, even the Papelbon vs. Rivera dustup, created by the New York press, seemed oddly appropriate. Because it's Yankee Stadium, and did we really think a day dedicated to its celebration would not include at center stage the only other team to factor so strongly into its history?

So, here's to J.D. Drew, the only member from either squad still in the game when it ended. Yankee fans may not like it, but if it couldn't be a Yankee, it should have been a Red Sox.

Comments

[SF]

Ramblings:

Last night I really found myself pulling for Mariano, not just because he was pitching for the AL (though that contributed a bit) but because he is such a great pitcher and such a classy athlete. I realize that Papelbon's statements were blown out of proportion and mostly (mostly, not totally) a media creation, but he should learn something from Rivera, who no doubt has the confidence and internal swagger to play the role of closer (I mean, he walks onto the field to Metallica!) but who also knows how to handle his position with dignity and quiet. Papelbon may not be the man that Rivera is, and that's no crime. But he should learn that any conversation with the media is a potential landmine. Rivera is the best, and it would behoove Paps to understand why, even as the media does everything it can to draw controversy where there shouldn't be any.

It was a great 12 innings (I couldn't stay up through 15, no matter how hard I tried) and a truly enjoyable game. I am really happy for Drew, who had to put up with a lot of sh*t last year from the fans as well as off the field, stuff that had to drain him emotionally and physically. Congrats to a guy who is both a good ballplayer and, seemingly, a good man.

[Atheose]

Mo is by far my favorite current Yankee.

[Paul SF]

The game was throroughly enjoyable. To me, it rejuvenated the whole idea of the All-Star Game. Well played (except for poor Dan Uggla, whose childhood dream was to play at Yankee Stadium) and exciting throughout. That 10th inning just blew my mind.

OTOH, I see a lot of people giving MLB props for the pregame ceremonies. "No one does this better than MLB," etc. I'm sorry, but it would have been a lot more impressive had they not already done pretty much the exact same thing in 1999 -- and I thought the Steinbrenner thing was clearly an attempt to re-create the magic of the Ted Williams moment, making it seem like a poor derivative of something that, while still contrived, was much more spontaneous and touching when it happened in '99.

Of course, it helped that all the players on the field loved Williams and swarmed him spontaneously. I think Yogi Berra was the only player captured actually giving the Boss a hug.

[YF]

MLB did a nice job with the parade.

But a game that slips on past 1:00am? i know everyone is too cheap to give up 3 weekend paydays to hold this thing on a saturday afternoon, but, really, is there any reason this thing can't get underway before 8:30? it's a travesty. even red-bull swilling diehards like sf couldn't make the end of this thing. if the idea is to promote the sport to a younger generation, than this kind of thing is a total fiasco. what 6th grader can last until 2am? BOOOOOO!!!

[Paul SF]

Games like this are why it's nice to live in the Central time zone -- and have a newborn child who's going to be up at that time anyway.

[FenSheaParkway]

Last night was a slightly different case. That game would have gone late even if they had started it at 7 EST.

I managed to stay up for the whole thing and am glad I did. I can't remember seeing a better ASG. There have been other close ones, but last night's game had a little bit of everything. I'm usually pretty sour on the whole concept of an ASG, because the All-Star part of it often messes with it's ability to be a real Game. This year was an exception; if only they could be like that more often.

[SF]

what 6th grader can last until 2am

What 6th grader can last until 11pm? I never stayed up that late when I was 11 years old, maybe times have changed. If you want a game to be over by the time a 6th grader goes to bed it is going to have to start at 7pm sharp, and we know that is simply unrealistic, the West Coast is effectively written off with the game ending before prime time. Unless they made the ASG a weekend affair and did the HRD on Sat nite (a la the dunk contest) and the game on Sunday afternoon, then start the regular season back up on Tuesday with three-game series'. I would be in favor of this, but I am not naive either, I don't think it will ever happen.

[sf rod]

i tend to forget that people still even live on the east coast. last nite i had to stop watching in the 9th so i could go into work at the bar by 9:30 PM. hell, i wasn't even drunk yet when the game ended. hopefully baseball will never cave into parents complaints or office warriors time cards.

[krueg]

"Yes, even the Papelbon vs. Rivera dustup, created by the New York press, seemed oddly appropriate"

Not to beat a dead horse but if Papelbon wouldn't have said what he said, there would have been no controversy.

The game was booooooooooring. Of course I think baseball in general is boring so. If it weren't for the fact that it was the last one in the Stadium, I wouldn't have really cared. The pregame/introductions were the best part in my opinion. Seeing all those HOF'ers I've never heard of was pretty special...did they really keep all the Sox HOF'ers away because of the inevitable booing??? I read that somewhere today...

[LocklandSF]

"Not to beat a dead horse but if Papelbon wouldn't have said what he said, there would have been no controversy."

Yeah, how dare he say over and over again that Mo is the greatest ever.

[John - YF]

"Well played (except for poor Dan Uggla, whose childhood dream was to play at Yankee Stadium) and exciting throughout."

I really wish I had the time to write about everything I saw over the past 3 days, but when I saw your comment Paul I had to chime in. It probably got worse for Uggla when he got home last night/this morning. I had the privilege of sitting right behind home plate in the middle of all the families and friends of the players. To my right was Mr and Mrs Wilson, Brian Wilson's parents, Really nice people from Mass. To my left was Adrian Gonzalez's family and the family of Christian Guzman. Then in the front row, on the railing was Mrs. Uggla. She was there with 2 boys, one wearing Dad's All-Star jersey and the other wearing Dad's home jersey. There was a 3rd child that couldn't be more than 6 weeks old, couldn't tell boy or girl. The boys were probably 4 and 2. Anyway, the little one was playing on the rail and went arse over tea kettle onto the ground. The police came over, it was pure drama, in the end little Uggla was just fine. Then after Uggla decided to play soccer with the baseball at 2B (and I am not making this up. I hesitated including his team affiliation, don't make it a big deal) a Sox fan, wearing a Sox jersey, sitting behind me decided to begin to heckle Mrs. Uggla and her kids. Eventually, I believe in the 13th she got up and left with the kids. So overall the night for the Uggla family was pretty crappy.

Monday night I sat in front of Scott Gomez. I don't follow hockey and didn't even know he was anyone until the guy I was with told me. Last night, as I exited the bathroom pulling up my zipper (very classy!) I walked directly into Cheryl Crow. Honestly I think my left leg ways more than her, she is pencil thin. I said I was sorry, she laughed and walked away with some guy she was with. Chesire CT's own Brian Leetch was also a few rows up from me. Again, not a hockey fan but I knew who he was. Really not trying to name drop, but I am a super average guy and never get exposed to this type of stuff.

I do have pictures, I will try and get a post up ASAP. Just swamped.

[krueg]

Lock: You're right...he is an innocent little angel. It's all the big, bad NY media to blame. Papelbon would never say/do something stupid...it's not in his nature.

[nettles]

"Yeah, how dare he say over and over again that Mo is the greatest ever."

You didn't finish his sentence, which ended with something along the lines of "...but I think I should close the A-S Game in Yankee Stadium."

The obscene gesture portrayed on Papelblown's t-shirt didn't exactly win him class points, either. Sounds like he and C-Rod have the same tailor.

[LocklandSF]

My god, it's like a Fox news convention in here today!!!

"...but I think I should close the A-S Game in Yankee Stadium."

That is not, at all, in any way, what he said.

But that's what the media wanted you to think he said and you're eating it up like Fox news sheep.

re: the dead horse

i don't think it is an issue of "class," as i have seen it termed here and plenty of other places, but instead sophistication, or something closer to that.

you don't hear rivera say things like that, whether he believes them or not, because he likely knows that the press would love nothing more than to blow something like this out of proportion. the yankee rookies are taken aside every year and lectured on interactions with the press in an effort to avoid these distractions.

i don't think that this incident (or a t-shirt that may have been randomly tossed into a suitcase, instead of worn as some sort of a statement) can really shed much light on someone's character.

that said, i think francona's actions and the reported interest that pedroia and youkilis took in the yankee clubhouse (munson's locker, etc.) did nothing but justify my soft spots for the three of them.

i guess i might be contradicting myself, but maybe not.

[Lar]

Maturity?

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

oops. i was anonymous.

yes. sure. maturity.

[Lar]

Why don't you tell us what he did say then?

[soxgirl]

Is everyone just a little testy that there won't be real baseball until Friday? I know I am - the engineers I just dispatched to troubleshoot a problem that they should have been able to figure out on their told me so. Testily.

[nettles]

Lock, do some reading...

What he said to start the controversy:

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080715/SPORTS01/807150367/-1/SPORTS

How he tried to end it:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/07/15/door_might_be_shut_on_closer_for_al/

Nice try. With those spin doctoring skills, you should be White House press secretary.

[LocklandSF]

He said if he were managing the team, he would close. 50 minutes of the interview and that's the only part anyone is printing, one or two sentences. Almost nobody is printing the heaps and heaps of praise he gave Mo, during that interview.

[nettles]

YFIB:

So, say you've been selected to the All-Star Team, playing in the final such event ever to be held in arguably the most-storied baseball stadium in history. You choose to wear to the stadium to meet with the press...a F**k you-gesture t-shirt? Yessir, class all the way.

Third class, that is. I think it speaks volumes about his character, or lack thereof.

[nettles]

No, both articles I linked to, plus plenty of others, stated that he praised Mo. So what. He also said that he thought he should close, not Mo. He didn't change his tune until it was pointed out to him that he was pretty much the only person that thought so.

Defend the bum all you like. I've stated my case.

[dknyc]

My issue with Paps is when he brought up that since the Sox won the series, the Sox manager had the right to make the choice...thus creating a 'to the victor go the spoils' scenario.

That said, I dont think its a big deal and that the story should just die...I think its crazy that the News put that storyline on the back page.

[krueg]

It is all stupid. Guys like Ortiz, Jeter, Mo, Varitek are older, seasoned veterans. They know what to say and when to say it...Papelbon is just young and a little crazy it seems. If it were K-Rod that said it, no big deal probably. But it was Papelbon's words that got him in trouble. Obviously the NY press is out of their collective minds, I wish they would lay off ARod, but everyone knows that and Papelbon should have too? If Papelbon wants to compare himself to Mo, he should try and emulate him off the field as well as on I would say...

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

i don't know, nettles.

i personally would not. i do have a ron burgundy "go f**k yourself, san diego" shirt that i would indeed wear to petco, in a similar situation that would ensure that i wouldn't be around kids.

if it was supposed to be a statement, couldn't that be directed at the media who were in the locker room? the people writing these stories?

any attempt to decipher his intentions is pretty useless.

[SF]

If Papelbon wants to compare himself to Mo, he should try and emulate him off the field as well as on I would say...

See my first comment in this thread, K.

The hard thing is that Mo is a special athlete, a special character. Paps is a young tyro, and as I posted about yesterday, well, maybe a few crayons short of a full box. His filter isn't practiced, polished, and he's not a seasoned veteran. He's a young guy with a lot of confidence who has only been in the league for three full years and has enjoyed tremendous success partly due to his attitude as a closer. I think what he said was kind of stupid, but he caught himself well enough to make what has happened not commensurate with his original comments. This is all so ridiculous.

My guess is Papelbon's shirt was for the press. Again, perhaps not a bright move considering that is who makes/breaks his image and drives the news cycle, but that shirt wasn't about anyone but the writers who made a mountain out of a medium-sized hill. That shirt wasn't about the Yankees, their fans, or anyone else, it was about the way his statements were represented, at least that's how I see it. Were I his PR rep I certainly would have advised against his wearing it, but so it goes.

[sf rod]

did you guy's hear the blasphemy that came from joakim soria's mouth?

with regards to mariano soria said, "He has his own style, and I have my own style.".

does joakim not understand that this is the last year of yankee stadium? to say something like that is third class and bum-like.

[DuffsWhole30Challenge]

Cripe. Yankee fans still bent about this Papelbon "disrespect" or what freaking t-shirt he wore need to take a deep breath... and ... calm... DOWN. So the dude's a little young, a little cocky, and maybe just a little not bright enough to see how to deal with the NY papers. He didn't call your mamma a bitch, he didnt' say your closer sucks. We get it, you don't like him. Whatever. Everyone knows Mariano is a class guy and the best ever. I'd be more upset about the standings or how your wack-job of a third baseman popped out to the catcher with a guy in scoring position last night.

And great for JD tying it up last night. That was freakin' sweet.

[krueg]

Way to throw in those completely unrelated digs Duff...awesome.

[I'm Bill McNeal]

I think we're kind of missing the spirit of things here.
Yeah, Paps is a bit bombastic at times. He's young and full of testosterone. And yeah, he should have known better than to say what he said.
Certainly after this experience he should NOW know to watch his words.
But do any of you critics of his REALLY think that he doesn't believe that the mound belonged to Mo in the ninth inning of that game last night?
Of course he does.
So calm down and let it go.

On to more important things: Was it at Fenway or the Stadium that Fisk kicked Munson's ass?
Just kidding.

[krueg]

Interesting article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=philbrick/080716&sportCat=mlb

[I'm Bill McNeal]

Gotta run to get my 6-year-old to his baseball game tonight, where the 6-7 Red Sox and Yankees square off.
My prediction: The game will take way too long and include lots of errors, swings and misses, inattention on the field and a tie score at the end.
My son wears No. 3 for the Red Sox (a coincidence, I swear), just like Pokey Reese and Mark Loretta.

"I mean, he walks onto the field to Metallica!"

He was never involved in the selection of that music. And when asked he says he doesn't care much for it.

"I thought the Steinbrenner thing was clearly an attempt to re-create the magic of the Ted Williams moment"

Should they have had Steinbrenner parachute in just to be different? Or roll a tank on the field in honor of Patton? How else would you suggest they bring him out for the crowd? On Jeter and A-Rod's shoulders? Or them pulling a chariot in which he rode?

"Not to beat a dead horse but if Papelbon wouldn't have said what he said, there would have been no controversy."

Exactly. Even the "godfather" nonsense is more jokey and demeaning than celebratory. Besides which it took him two days to clarify his remarks. Mo is the best ever. Period. That says it all.

I like Lar's pointer to 1999 - imagine the ink spilled in Boston had Jeter said the same nonsense of himself in reference to Nomah, especially as the two-time (and defending champ) going into that game.

Papsy knew three days beforehand that Mo would be closing. Everything else from him was drama mama.

"His filter isn't practiced, polished, and he's not a seasoned veteran."

Sorry, but he's a moron. Some people have always had class (Jeter, Mo). Papsy never will.

[Nick-YF]

"Should they have had Steinbrenner parachute in just to be different? Or roll a tank on the field in honor of Patton? How else would you suggest they bring him out for the crowd? On Jeter and A-Rod's shoulders? Or them pulling a chariot in which he rode?"

so many good choices here! It's hard to pick. I like the idea of George parachuting/hellicoptering on top of Papelbon as he pitched in the 8th inning. George would have a megaphone in hand screaming something about classiness and the young closer's lack of it. Then I would want George to fly away to a faraway land. After a 10 minute delay, I'd expect Papelbon to continue pitching.

[krueg]

To be fair, throw Ortiz into the "class" category. Can't say a bad thing about that guy.

[DuffsWhole30Challenge]

Please, Krueg. Your skin isn't that thin, is it?

[A YF]

That anon was me above.

Ortiz "playfully" shouting Madonna during A-Rod's interview isn't classy. Nor is his array of sunglasses. Indeed, the whole Papi chic isn't classy.

On the Sox -
Mike Lowell = Classy.
Tito = Classy.

After Youkilis saying all the right things the last few days, including at SS to Jeter during the last series about playing on the same team = Classy (as much as I'd hate to admit it).

[Paul SF]

Besides which it took him two days to clarify his remarks.

It took him zero time to clarify his remarks. His remarks are his remarks, and when printed in full in the next day's Boston Globe -- or recited by members of the media from outside New York -- delivered a far different tone than the one portrayed by Pete Abe and the Daily News. Let's drop this fiction about "clarifying" his remarks. His remarks have been consistently the same: He wanted to close, but he understood the rationale for letting Mo close and was perfectly happy should that be the case.

You know who else said he thought he should close the All-Star Game during the media sessions?

"[W]e're here in Yankee Stadium. I think I should get the shot."

Mariano Rivera. Classless jerk.

[A YF]

"His remarks have been consistently the same."

Really? Cause you didn't think so right after he said them. You had to go and point to the Edes exclusive to make your point that PeteAbe took him horribly out of context. Then Papsy spent two days trying to say the right thing.

"Mariano Rivera. Classless jerk."

That statement says so much more about you than him. It's sad really you can't see that or even come close.

[attackgerbil]

Papelbon is a fantastic, driven closer. He thinks he earned the chance to close in the right situation, and from his young man's perspective, I appreciate him vocalizing his desire to be the go-to guy when the game is on the line. His lack of "couth" (for my lack of a better word) doesn't grate on me. I applaud the fact that he expressed his emotions and drive so openly and directly. He did not do it to discredit anybody; he just felt like runnningg. GOOD FOR HIM. If I rooted for a team that had a closer that said he didn't want the ball, I'd be thoroughly pissed. To his credit, he said it was a complicated thing; he was absolutely right. For things to align so that Mo would have been in a save situation in the ninth involves so many permutations that he was spot-on in describing it complicated.

> If it were K-Rod

krueg, funny you should say that. I read this article in the LA Times earlier today regarding Francisco Rodriguez eminent filing for free agency. I wanted to do a write-up earlier today but didn't have time. Here's the nugget:

For this season, Rodriguez said, he considers himself the best closer in the league.

"No doubt," he said. "Who's got the best numbers and the most saves?"

I considered. He ain't.

[attackgerbil]

> That statement says so much more about you than him.

Oh come off of it. It doesn't say anything about Paul or Rivera. It speaks to the absurd idea that anyone would try to convince any sucker reader that Papelbon (or any other competitor) is out-of-line by saying he wants to the chance to close the ASG.

[A YF]

"If I rooted for a team that had a closer that said he didn't want the ball, I'd be thoroughly pissed."

Saying you want the ball is one thing. Throwing shit in someone else's house is something else entirely. Unless your IQ approaches that of an ape...

And anyone want to show me a quote of K-Rod saying the same thing of closing out the All-Star game. In Yankee Stadium. In it's last season.

See we're not having this debate of any other player being a moron. That speaks volumes. Of all the players in the game, only one lacked any semblance of intelligence.

[FenSheaParkway]

Boy, that JD Drew is one heck of a player, isn't he! Enjoy the Hybrid truck, JD!

[A YF]

P.s. If anyone "should come off it", it's Paul. Somehow he dedicates an entire post to why the All-Star in Yankee Stadium in its last season is also really about the Red Sox and one of their players.

My god.

In between, he takes potshots at Steinbrenner, intuits a vast media conspiracy in NYC, and jumps through history "linking" the two teams.

Hate to break it to you, Paul, but the Yankees have a storied history that has absolutely nothing to do with your team. Last night was a celebration of THAT and their place as the greatest team, by far, in MLB history. It had nothing to do with that team from Beantown. Perhaps your ego would be better served by simply acknowledging that and moving on.

[attackgerbil]

> Throwing shit

The shit has been thrown by the press, not Papelbon. Consider this headline (used :

"Papelbon: I should close"

Now consider what he said: "If I was managing the team, I would close, But I'm not managing the team."

The reality gulf is more vast than anyone (and there were so many) who wanted to sell that wrong headline wants to admit.

What Papelbon said was a non-issue.

[krueg]

Duff: I don't have thin skin...I just don't see the point of your shots at the Yankees. Find where I take shots at the Sox in my posts? It's all good...you are a hater. Noted.

[A YF]

"What Papelbon said was a non-issue."

To you. And Paul. Many disagree.

Papsy is an idiot for even going there. Even SF has admitted as such (and dedicated a post to it). No other closer was so foolish, and no other player said anything close to that level of stupidity. The controversey is of his own making. His tap dancing afterward shows exactly that. Otherwise, why not just stand behind his comments like a man, if indeed he said nothing wrong?

[attackgerbil]

If he were an idiot (he's not but he is young and a poor diplomat) and had the controversy been of his own making (it was not), AND despite that he may have "tap-danced" with his praise (it was both in-conference and in side-bar conference) when talking about Rivera, this piling on Papelbon for his wont to close is for naught, as Mo didn't get to close either. He said nothing about any other player; he said "I want the ball; I've earned the ball." I can not argue with that, but it seems to be that many will.

How many Yankees were in the game last night when Mo took the mound? How many after he delivered his stellar two innings? This line of conversation is running almost as long as the ASG, but in contrast, this particular flavor of vodka is turning sour for me.

[attackgerbil]

> said nothing

edit said nothing disparaging

[DuffsWhole30Challenge]

Krueg: Come on man, don't get your panties in a bunch and start the "oh you're just a hater" rap. If you can't slide in a few underhanded digs around here, then where can you? (Cause that *never* happens around here... Riiiight.) Calling Mariano a class act and the best closer ever doesn't sound like words of a hater... at least to me.

I'll just restate my original point and suggest that those still bent about the whole Papelbon comments thing to just chill a little and put it all in perspective. This time I'll leave out any suggestions of where complaining might be more fitting. Everyone of course is entitled to bitch/complain (Lord knows I do at times) but this level of outrage/disgust/hate/pissed-off-edness towards Papelbon is approaching comical. He didn't piss on the Babe's monument, did he?

I'll agree with you on one point in your original post, however: yup, that horse is dead. Thanks for pointing that out, Captain Obvious!

[SF]

It had nothing to do with that team from Beantown.

So you had the sound off on your tv last night, eh? This is perhaps the most inaccurate comment of this thread, at least based on what transpired last night.

[A YF]

Drew was a player from a team. It was as simple as that. No different or better or worse than if Young had won the award. Last night was inherently not about the Red Sox. Sorry to burst your overly inflated egos, Paul and SF. But yeah, Yankee history stands far ahead of "the team from Beantown".

My god, I can't believe those words are necessary, even here, in light of last night. What next, the very last last game at The Stadium will involve the Sox because Eric Hinkse hits a HR?

This post and thread, coming back to it, is the most overly egocentric and dramatic of any I've read here. But I'm still waiting for Paul to describe how Steinbrenner should have come onto the field. By parachute or by chariot?

EDIT: What, moderators change posts well after the fact now and make no mention of it? How convenient...nice journalistic integrity.

[doug YF]

DUFF: Oh man, you should know better about things around this site go. You really should. If everyone's allowed to make their underhanded jabs, it's going to inevitably escalate into a shitstorm of hurt feelings and internet idiot pageantry that will make everyone dumber for participating.

But if you don't mind eventually scrolling through 100 straight posts of baseball-related internet screaming contest, then fire away, dogg.

[A YF]

P.s. I know it must make some SFs feel better about themselves by intricately linking all things Yanks and Sox. But history isn't so easily amended to fit ego gratification.

"did we really think a day dedicated to its celebration would not include at center stage the only other team to factor so strongly into its history?"

Since The Stadium opened, History says:
Yanks and Sox have played three times in the post-season (1999, 2003, 2004). By contrast, and for the world championship, the Yanks have played the Dodgers 11 times, the Giants 6 times, and St Louis 5 times. Furthermore, here's the list of teams that the Yanks have played at least three times in the post-season during the Wild Card Era: Cleveland, Oakland, Seattle, and Texas.

Meanwhile, you might object and say well it's because of their divisional rivalry. But apart from the Wild Card Era - smaller divisions, bigger payrolls - the Yanks and Sox finished 1st and 2nd just 7 times of the 72 seasons between when The Stadium opened and 1995 (Wild Card Era). Of those 7 "races" only three were decided by less than 9 games - 1949, 1978, and 1986, with the two former decided by 1 game (both won by the good guys) and the latter by 5.5 games ( by the Devil's spawn).

The fact is, the "rivalry" is an invention of the 1978 race and of the Wild Card Era. But that certainly doesn't make the Sox "the only other team to factor so strongly into its history". Many, many other teams have a more legitimate claim to that also-ran status.

Look, the last five to ten years have been a lot of fun - 2003 and 2004 most especially so. But let's not go overboard simply in service of your historically bruised ego. It makes you look silly and short-sighted.

[soxgirl]

Uh, ok, A, the wtf was all the booing of red sox about?

[Dirty Water]

'1999, 2003, 2004'

Interesting how these two teams never played playoff baseball before those dates. Oh wait, maybe that's because they've always been in the same freakin division!

In fact, the only possible way these two teams could have faced each other in any playoff was once the WC was added to the playoff mix in '95 (actually '94). Although they sure as hell played each other plenty during the regular seasons.

Damn, do you ever twist stuff to make your convoluted points.

And the 'fact is' the rivalry did not need '78 nor the WC. All it needed were two top revenue teams, located just 200 miles apart, situated in the same division, with millions of homeys scattering across the Nation as they graduated and got lives.

When it began is debatable. That it began was eventual. How long it will continue is solely up to Steinbrenner's wont to buy his way out of a complete freaking mess.

[Paul SF]

The post hasn't changed, A. Sadly, neither have you.

[SF]

"an invention of the 1978 race"

Tell that to to Teddy Ballgame, Joe D., and David Halberstam. Or, at least, their grave-spinning corpses.

[A YF]

"Oh wait, maybe that's because they've always been in the same freakin division!"

Ummmm, like I took great pains to point out (like going through all of Yankee history since The Stadium opened), the Wild Card Era is very, very different. Before that, you can count with two or three fingers the number of times there could have been said to be a divisional race between the two teams.

"Tell that to to Teddy Ballgame, Joe D., and David Halberstam. Or, at least, their grave-spinning corpses."

Like I said, 1949 equals exactly one season. The "rivalry" was never otherwise close during their playing days. That's right - one season. Like 1978. Two seasons of 72 does not make a rivalry. 1986 is a stretch because it was 5.5 games. And who talks about 1986 today?

If we're talking about the Yankees greatest rivals in history, we're talking Dodgers and Giants and even Cardinals and Reds. Including the Wild Card Era, we're talking, in addition to Sox, the Rangers, Mariners, Indians, and A's.

Like I said, the last bunch of years have been a lot of fun. But don't go overboard historically in pursuit of ego gratification. In talking about "history", you ignore the vast, vast majority. I mean, none of this should be controversial especially because it's factual.

Bigger question: Why does it make some SFs feel better about yourselves to link your team to ours? Sheessh, enjoy your own successes. Take a moment to get over yourselves and realize that Tuesday night and down the stretch, historically, belongs to the Yankees. The only thing that could upstage that, historically, is the Cubs winning a series. But when the wrecking ball finally hits Fenway, I know I will recognize it for what it was. And hopefully you guys will have seen a championship won on that turf.

(Paul - my apologies on thinking you edited the post. Your note on Steinbrenner was a comment that I missed with this newfangled system. Still, the shot at that moment is really sad, and linking it, in any way, to Teddy's is even sadder. Unless you want to tell me how Big Stein should have made his entrance - you know, to spare one Sox fan from making a ridiculous comparison? Jump onto the backstop bungee-style or pilot the Stealth Bomber into centerfield?

[Atheose]

The loudest fan reaction during the ASG wasn't the game-winning run in the 15th inning, or the cheers for any of the Yankee greates. It was the booes the Red Sox players got, especially Papelbon. In a celebration of Yankee Stadium's final season, the loudest reaction by Yankees fans was related to the Red Sox.

But no, Paul's the one tying to tie the two franchises together? Please.

[I'mBillMcNeal]

OK, A YF, we get it.
You hate the Red Sox and their fans and you will will stop at nothing to rationalize your feelings.
You take everything personally and you throw it on the ground, stomp on it, crap on it, burn it and then run the Yankee logo up the flagpole like it was some sort of institution beyond reproach.
We get it.
Some Red Sox fan peed in your breakfast cereal when you were five and you never got over it.
We get it.
We also get that your arguments are specious, that you completely lack objectivity when it comes to the Red Sox AND the Yankees and that when all else fails you point to history and say, "SEE THAT 26? It will ALWAYS, ALWAYS under every circumstance be better, stronger and more powerful than enything YOU RED SOX PEOPLE have at any time in your entire pathetic lives. The current state of affairs matters not because of 26. Twenty-six, 26, twenty-freakin-six."

We get it.

We also get that you are a complete douchebag.
So crawl back into your hole with your other knuckledragging, mouthbreathing friends and leave this blog to people who can handle objectivity, a little ribbing and appreciate and respect the unity brought about by the simple game of baseball and these two teams.

Go. Away.

[Atheose]

It's 8:55 and I haven't had coffee yet. Obviously "greates" should be spelled "greats".

[SF]

If this is a false rivalry then why bother with this site, founded by YF and me due to our sincere love for that rivalry, and focused on that rivalry? If the rivalry is false, then why not spend time at a site discussing baseball with fans of the team you root for, and not with fans of the team you (supposedly) don't care about as a rival? If the rivalry is false, then why not attack other fans of other teams (and not your false rivals') with antagonism or, like last night, heavily qualified (and therefore hollow) apologies? If the rivalry is false, then why use our bandwidth to reiterate it's falseness? Why not go to a place where you can discuss baseball with like-minded fans? Why would anyone go to a place and pronounce their disdain for the very foundation of the website while simultaneously engaging the foundation they attempt to negate, over and over?

Please, go to a place that was founded on something you believe in, that's my suggestion.

[A YF]

It was the booes the Red Sox players got, especially Papelbon.

Since we live in a world of facts, you measured that how?

Furthermore, since when are "boos" indicative of history?

Like I said, the last few years have been fun. But in the history of Yankee Stadium, the Sox certainly don't rate as high as the Dodgers, Giants, Cardinals, or even Reds. After that the Sox fall somewhere in with the Rangers, A's, Mariners, and Indians. The history of the East also involves Detroit and Baltimore too. To me, the M's (1995) and Indians (1997) hurt much more than 2004 ever will.

Why all the resistance from some SFs? You guys seem to want, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, to link all things Sox and Yanks. With your recent history you should feel proud to stand tall, and alone. The Sox history is great and unique by itself - so much so you really should be past your inferiority complex by now. But in no other sport is this nonsense an issue - especially not with two teams of such divergent histories. What's your deal? Maybe, Paul, as the seeming leader of this feeling here would like to lay on the couch for a bit and share?

[LocklandSF]

Wow, A YF, you are a real piece of shit.

Sorry, had to say it.

[John - YF]

"The loudest fan reaction during the ASG wasn't the game-winning run in the 15th inning, or the cheers for any of the Yankee greates."

Sorry Ath, but that's false. The loudest cheers were for Mariano and Jeter. As for the part about the bottom of the 15th...I can only speak for my group, but we were exhausted.

Side note, there were a TON of non-Yankee fans there. Very much a diverse crowd. Rays, Brewers, Mets...

[Atheose]

Sorry Ath, but that's false. The loudest cheers were for Mariano and Jeter.

Sorry John, Fox is a POS and cut away during Mariano's entrance in the 9th. I still never got to see his entrance, not even on sportscenter.

[A YF]

You hate the Red Sox and their fans and you will will stop at nothing to rationalize your feelings.

Hmmm, except I've been saying alot of nice things about them in the pad- of Tito and Youkilis and of your recent successes. Read again. And then again.

Meaninwhile, the hate is coming all from your side. Of all the photos from Tuesday night only one was posted here - by a Sox for a Sox. And this post was another devoted to the exact same topic. Really, the most important thing that happened on Tuesday was Drew winning the MVP? Really, huh?

The defensiveness I'm encountering speaks volumes. I simply would like you guys to acknowledge your history and success as apart from the Yankees. It's healthier for you!

Otherwise, Bill, I see the village is still missing its idiot. You can go home now.

If this is a false rivalry then why bother with this site, founded by YF and me due to our sincere love for that rivalry, and focused on that rivalry?

When was this site founded? Paul said a lot of false things about history. The "rivalry" is a very recent invention - about five years in fact based on actual games worth something - give or take three years of the past 90. And wouldn't you know this site was founded in 2003!

Like I've said, time and time again, the past few years have been fun. And this is a fine place to discuss those events. But that's very different from history.

Paul's question again - which he seems to believe in its entirety:

did we really think a day dedicated to its celebration would not include at center stage the only other team to factor so strongly into its history?

I'm sad that you guys need a historical lesson. And it can't be easy coming from me. But wake up and enjoy your team and history for what it is - far apart from the NY Yankees.

[SF]

John, would it be fair to say, then, that the second most noticeably effusive in-game reactions to any given players were the boos showered on the rivals? Curious to know where it fit in in the grand scheme of "how the fans treated the Yanks rivals". I imagine the TV microphones don't accurately portray what goes on, hence Ath's claim, but it seemed obvious to me that there was a good deal of focused energy devoted to the booing of these rivals. Based on your earlier comments about how Tek was treated, that would seem to have been important to at least a sector of the YFs in attendance this weekend.

Is this an accurate thought?

Dam tags!

Wow, A YF, you are a real piece of shit.

And you have a deep, deep psychological scar. Maybe when the Sox win one at Fenway you'll get over it. I doubt that though.

[A YF]

Thanks for fixing that. I'll try my best to close tags when using them.

Again, since when are boos historical? Is there a boo-reference.com that I can check? Or are boos listed in the Sunday papers?

Paul made a blatantly false historical comparison while shoehorning the Sox into Tuesday night. Did we really need two posts devoted to Drew (and the Sox) and the only photo of the evening?

It's obvious where his (and many other SFs) insecurities lie. It's time to let those go, boys. Your team can rightly be celebrated on its own.

[SF]

This site was founded in 2003. Blogger, the original interface, was mainstreamed in 2003 when Google bought it and made it more prominent. YF (a f*cking massively accomplished BASEBALL HISTORIAN) and I have been emailing back and forth since we first met nearly ten years ago and took our discussions public when blogging became more popular and we discovered the free interface for the discussion. That coincidence, the one that fits your own simplistic and shortsighted history, is one of the biggest straw-grabs I have ever encountered. You would get an "F" in debating class.

You haven't sincerely answered any of my questions. Why do you bother with our site when the premise and foundation of our dialogue is an anathema to you?

[John - YF]

The Red Sox players and coaches were most definitely boo'd and boo'd hard. No denying that.

I would say after the cheers for all the Yankees and the introduction of George, the Sox were next. But I would say the absolute love shown to Mariano and Jeter (more so Mariano) outweighed the booing of the Sox. A close 3rd were David Wright and Billy Wagner, so don't feel bad Sox fans.

[LocklandSF]

http://nomaas.org/

http://yankees.lhblogs.com/

There are plenty of places for people like you.

[Atheose]

Again, since when are boos historical? Is there a boo-reference.com that I can check? Or are boos listed in the Sunday papers?

Tuesday night was a night for Yankee Stadium, yet one of the strongest emotions displayed with hate for the Red Sox. That's fine; if I were a YF I'd boo too. But don't then turn around and pretend like the Red Sox aren't rooted in your history, or more personally your own love for the Yankees. How many true Yankees fans feel neutral towards the Red Sox? Not many.

Paul made a blatantly false historical comparison while shoehorning the Sox into Tuesday night. Did we really need two posts devoted to Drew (and the Sox) and the only photo of the evening?

There are 5 YF moderators and 2 SF moderators. Don't blame Paul just because he made a post celebrating a Red Sox player's accomplishments, while no YF moderators made posts about Yankee Stadium.

[Atheose]

Disclaimer: I'm not bashing any of the YF moderators, all of whom I deeply respect as knowledgable, intelligent and interesting.

[A YF]

That coincidence, the one that fits your own simplistic and shortsighted history, is one of the biggest straw-grabs I have ever encountered. You would get an "F" in debating class.

Hmmmm, so your emails go back to the early 20's? Or 1949? Or did they start in 1978?

Regardless, of when they started, there wasn't much of a rivalry before 1978 - unless you count one other pennant race in the 55 years between 1923 and 1978. Between, 1978 and 2003, there wasn't much of one either. Something different happened with that 1978 season, but it didn't truly find life again until the Wild Card Era.

And in debating I learned that facts actually mean something. You're groping for truth in boos and mics. Good luck there. Care to offer some actually historical facts?

Why do you bother with our site when the premise and foundation of our dialogue is an anathema to you?

Read what I wrote. This is a fine place to discuss the recent rivalry.

But don't then turn around and pretend like the Red Sox aren't rooted in your history.

I never said they're not there. They're there - but not above the Dodgers or Giants or even the Cardinals. The next time the Yankees meet one of those teams in the post-season we'll be reminded of that.

The Wild Card Era is something else entirely. If indeed SF and YF started their personal "rivalry" since 1995 then we have more evidence in my favor.

Again, why all the resistance, SFs? Stand on your own. You've grown up now. It's time to let go.

[Atheose]

Regardless, of when they started, there wasn't much of a rivalry before 1978

Uh oh, the thesis of AYF's term paper has changed once again! The No True Scotsman to the rescue!

[A YF]

Atheose -

Do you know what history is? If so, when did Yankee Stadium's history begin?

Since 1923, you can use your fingers to count the number of seasons where the Sox played a part in what happened to the Yankees. There are many, many more where they played almost no role, except as a whipping boy.

More importantly for your personal feelings, the Sox have a few seasons of their own, where the Yanks played a minor role, if any. Learn to celebrate those. The Sox really do have a history unique from the Yankees.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

let's lighten up the mood in here a bit, shall we?

http://tinyurl.com/6p4uwh

if i may quote the man, "Ha!"

[LocklandSF]

Arod: Cougar Hunter

http://tinyurl.com/5lzx8u

[Atheose]

Blessed art the cougars.

[Paul SF]

Regardless, of when they started, there wasn't much of a rivalry before 1978

The man claiming to give us a history lesson follows with this amazingly untrue statement.

The late 1940s and early 1950s? 1901? 1904? 1919? You're out of your league here. Your obsessive hatred for the Red Sox is all the more impressive because of how successful the Yankees have been. It's like the last eight years have turned the bottom level of Yankee fans into a seething mass of insecurity and hysteria. We saw that on display during the All-Star Game, and we see it on display almost every time A engages in another brutally specious argument designed to trash a team he supposedly cares nothing about. Simply amazing.

Ok, back to ignoring the toddler.

[krueg]

Seems to me that a lot of the folks on here saying we should lay off of Papelbon or call us too sensitive are some of the same people that get off on doing the same sort of thing to ARod...right?

[A YF]

"The late 1940s and early 1950s?"

Ummm, if you read the above there was exactly one season where there was a genuine race - 1949: when the Yanks won by one game. The other times they finished 1 and 2?:

1938 - Yanks by 9.5 games
1939 - Yanks by 17 games
1941 - Yanks by 17 games
1942 - Yanks by 9 games

Some "rivalry".

Otherwise, this discussion centers on Yankee Stadium history - you know 1923 and all. Except there you want it to be all about the Sox relationship to the Yankees. Too bad that relationship is exceedingly small and minor in the context of history. The only untrue statements, Paul, were driven by your inferiority complex. It's time to let it go already. Really. Grow up. And enjoy your team's successes. The times are not always good. Enjoy them while you can and let go of your childish pettiness.

For me, I was simply happy to show the exceedingly small view of "history" where your question applies - less than ten years in fact.

Way to set the example with the name calling though. Problem is, your reasoning stinks worse than those diapers you're hopefully changing.

[LocklandSF]

A YF,

You’re a reasonably smart person, has it ever crossed your mind to use your powers for good instead of evil? You’re exactly like that kid in school that thought everyone didn’t like him because he was awkward and geeky, but really it’s just because you were a condescending ass all the time. So now the years have gone by and all that anger you have kept in from being a friendless loser your whole life has turned your awkwardness in to arrogance. Arrogant, condescending, self righteous, asshole is what you have decided to be, you will show them! I’m willing to bet good money that this isn’t just your internet persona, this is you. You’re a sad little man.

[A YF]

Wow, Lockland, projecting much? That's sad really. Have fun trolling though.

Dearest moderators - You sure you want a site like this?

[A YF]

My question is:

How many more championships do the Sox have to win before Paul, SF, Bill, Atheose, and Lockland - collectively henceforth the Fat Pussy Toads - are truly happy with their team and its history?

What say you, Fat Pussy Toads?

[SF]

The worst part about your contributions A is that you completely demean Paul's eloquent and non-controversial post. If you re-read it, you'll see that it does nothing but articulate that our two teams are intertwined, that they complement each other in the name of sport. That you would twist such a rational and somewhat romantic piece of writing for your own ends is pretty low, it indicates within you all the insecurities that you want to attach to Sox fans.

As to your last question, no, we don't want a site like this. I dream of the day when the problem goes away.

[A YF]

"you'll see that it does nothing but articulate that our two teams are intertwined"

No he didn't. He asked:

did we really think a day dedicated to its celebration would not include at center stage the only other team to factor so strongly into its history?

What does "only other" mean in that context? Or "so strongly"? Or "its history"?

In simply pointing out the utter and complete inaccuracy of that question, I've read headstrong into the insecurities of the Fat Pussy Toads.

I'm still waiting for a contrary argument, with actual facts, instead of insults.

Meanwhile, the contemptible shot at Old Man Steinbrenner was what, exactly? Because it was clearly a follow-up to the post.

"I dream of the day when the problem goes away."

Well, since you're not enforcing your own guidelines, it will only be a dream. I'm still waiting for you to ban Bill after your last warning. Though, I guess I can't expect much courageous action from a Fat Pussy Toad.