Manny Fatigue

"I don't want to talk to them about contracts right now. So what? Enough is enough. I'm tired of them. They're tired of me, and after 2008, just send me a letter, whatever.

-- Manny Ramirez, Sunday.

It's a general rule in presidential politics that voters develop fatigue -- a deep-seated apathy, even a desire for change -- after eight years of one president. It happened with Bill Clinton, who is generally considered a good president, and it's happened with George W. Bush, who is generally considered a bad one, though history will render more final verdicts on both men in the decades to come. Only two presidents have ever survived this axiom: George Washington, the only president to voluntarily step aside after two terms, and Franklin Roosevelt, who died shortly after beginning his fourth -- both considered among the greatest presidents to serve this country.

Manny Ramirez is no president, but Red Sox Nation is in its eighth year of the Ramirez administration, so to speak. Only Tim Wakefield has been here longer, and Wakefield is not the on-field leader Ramirez is. For eight years, Manny Ramirez has been the future-Hall-of-Fame cog in the Red Sox' lineup. Although nothing is certain, it appears that is likely to end once this season is over.

I admit I have Manny fatigue. Eight years of drama, controversy, media-fueled overparsing of his every word and action ... Ramirez has been treated by the Boston sportswriters much like Washington political reporters treat a sitting president (Was he where he should have been? Is he giving 100 percent? Is he corrupt -- i.e., did he intentionally shirk his duty in important situations?). Through it all, I've grown a bit tired.

Tired of defending him, yes. I've been a big Manny defender. In some ways, he's the modern day Ted. Ripped by the press because he doesn't pay obeisance to the things the Boston sportswiters think he should. His intelligence is generally underappreciated, even while his work ethic and hitting prowess are legendary. He played an integral role in doing twice what even Ted, Yaz, Jim Ed and Wade could not do even once.

I named my cat after Manny Ramirez. Named my female dog after David Ortiz (we got around the gender issue by naming her "Poppy"). Without Manny first in front of him then behind him, there is no Big Papi. There is no greatest 3-4 lineup combination in our lifetimes playing for the Red Sox. There's no Yankee killer tattooing Mike Mussina and Andy Pettitte. There's no arms-raised, walk-off home run off Frankie Rodriguez, forever the Hall of Famer's definitive moment in baseball, never mind just his time with the Red Sox. There's no celebration of Home Run No. 300, or 400, or 500.

Then there's the other stuff you must be heartless not to like: Visits into the Green Monster, high-fiving a fan in the middle of a catch-and-throw double play, dancing and fist-bumping with Orlando Cabrera, Pedro Martinez, David Ortiz. The crazy hair, a new 'do every spring. The incredible comments when he does speak to the media: "I'm a bad man."

Yes, there's a lot to love about Manny Ramirez -- not least of which is the fact that he is third in RBI, fourth in home runs and second in OPS and OPS+ to Albert Pujols among all ballplayers with at least 5,000 plate appearances between 2001 and the present. No one will be calling Dan Duquett'e signing that December of 2000 a failure. Not now, not ever.

But there's the rest. And what makes my feeling of Manny fatigue frustrating is that much of it is based on news reports or rumors I've found to have little credibility.

There's the Gordon Edes hatchet job that essentially created and has since fueled the legend that Ramirez quit down the stretch in 2006 -- a piece that ever since has tarnished that writer's otherwise sterling image in my eyes. It was entirely unsourced, filled with innuendo and accusation, yet without any piece of evidence -- or even logical deductions based on observation -- to support it. The piece legitimized a rumor that, considering the dearth of evidence, should have remained exactly that.

There's the Bob Lobel rumor-mongering on WEEI -- in which he claimed the front office believed Ramirez took three straight strikes in a key at-bat from Mariano Rivera to retaliate for a "six-figure" fine levied for his shoving of the Red Sox' traveling secretary. Lobel never even claimed to have a front-office source for his statements, was wildly off-base on the amount of the fine, and never explained why Ramirez would choose to protest a full week after the fine was levied and paid to charity -- a week in which he hit well over .400.

Despite the lack of evidence, the utter inability of these reporters to ever verify the rumors they chose to report, the accusations linger, unfairly. They sit there, easily dismissed when all is smooth, not so easily brushed away when times are rocky. This is one of the rocky times.

Because there are things that we know are true, as well.

We know he called John Henry a "white devil" when the owner wouldn't immediately accede to one of Ramirez's many trade requests. We know about those, too. 2003, 2005, 2006. In between, he was placed on irrevocable waivers (no takers, as we well know). We know he slapped at Kevin Youkilis in the dugout. We know he is accused of shoving traveling secretary Jack McCormick. And while we're not buying the anguished cries of those who seem to believe 64 years of life qualifies McCormick for a nursing home, it was an amazingly infantile act, quickly reinforcing the stereotype that Ramirez is nothing more than a very talented, very rich child playing a child's game. It's a stereotype I hate, yet one that is now harder to refute.

Which brings us back to fatigue. Yes, I'm tired of defending Manny Ramirez, but I'd be more than willing to do it -- if it were worth doing. Now, I'm not sure. Now, I feel not so much fatigue at the idea of defending Manny. I feel fatigue at the idea of Manny himself, and all that entails.

It entails more rounds of bizarre and maddening comments -- allegations that the Sox' front office lies to its players, expressions that he's "tired" of Boston, failing to communicate about injuries right before a key series with the Yankees. It entails more rounds of self-righteous columns from sports writers inexplicably angry about various slights, real and imagined, Ramirez has perpetrated against the game of baseball. And, worst of all, it entails inexcusable actions -- as relatively unimportant as staring at a home run that winds up hitting the wall and being held to a single or failing to run out a ground ball that gets booted, or as serious as shoving a team employee or hitting a teammate.

I'm tired of that Manny. Sometimes I want him to go away. Time for a new administration. Jason Bay. Mark Teixeira. Shake his hand, thank him for all his work here, and let him get No. 600 elsewhere. Or "send (him) a letter," as Ramirez would apparently prefer.

But that's only one side, isn't it? As true as all that may be -- and it's as factual as I can surmise -- it's not the full picture.

Because "Manny" also entails terrific production -- the man is fifth in on-base percentage, seventh in OPS, eighth in home runs and eighth in RBI this season; good luck finding that on the trade market without gutting the farm system. He's given us 2004. He's given us 2007. The odds are good he'll have a "B" on his cap when his placque is engraved for Cooperstown. Anyone who thinks the Red Sox can survive without Manny Ramirez or an equal bat is sadly deluded, and the chances of getting an equal bat before the offseason are unlikely.

I may be tired of him. I may not love him anymore. I don't think I even particularly like him after the events of this weekend. But he's still our Manny. For better or worse, he's wearing the laundry, and that means we root for him. Just like we'd root for Barry Bonds or Alex Rodriguez if they wound up in red and white.

No matter how tired Ramirez is of the Red Sox, or the Sox of him, they need each other if they want to play baseball this October. And that means we need him, too.

Comments

[A YF]

And what makes my feeling of Manny fatigue frustrating is that much of it is based on news reports or rumors I've found to have little credibility.

As I've tried to say before, there's obviously some segment of the Sox front office that has a real problem with Manny and identifies all sorts of seen and unseen sins. I wouldn't be surprised if it goes as high as Lucchino. So the shoot the messenger strategy toward Edes and Lobel is off-base. All they were communicating was an attitude about Manny. And the only one who knows the accuracy of those reports could never dispute them or verify them, even if he talked to the English-speaking press. It's an area where the reporting stands on its own in the ether.

failing to communicate about injuries right before a key series with the Yankees.

Wasn't the MRI, and then it's release, an obvious "show your cards" moment from management? And wasn't Manny in the lineup the next two games?

[Atheose]

To quote Julio Lugo:

"I've been here two years, I think I'm one of the guys closest with Manny. I've been closer to Manny than anybody else. As a friend I'm trying to defend him. He cares so much. He does so much to be ready. Sometimes things distract him. Things just came together. I don't think he means anything. He [felt] real bad about the Jack [McCormick, the team's traveling secretary] thing. He apologized to Jack and he apologized to [Kevin] Youkilis. Those things, nobody even mentioned that. I don't think anybody mentioned that. Sometimes people misjudge him. People think he don't care. That's not the way it is. I think you guys should know that. He's the first guy to come here, the only guy who gets up at 10 o'clock in the morning every day is Manny, to get set. It's unfortunate that things like that happen. He shouldn't be doing that stuff. He's a mature guy. He understands he made a mistake. Just move on, ask for forgivenness, like he should, and move on."

As Surviving Grady says, who ever thought Lugo would be the voice of reason?

[Nick-YF]

Nice post, Paul. I assume that Manny is not getting traded anywhere this season. As SF put it in another thread, he'd go for pennies on the dollar, and the Sox are too smart a franchise to deal him for that in the middle of a pennant race. If they are indeed tired of Manny and want him gone, they'll just have to wait a couple of months to say goodbye. Don't pick up his option, offer him arbitration which he and Boras will not accept, and get their draft picks. I'm guessing if they trade him now, they might not get a package that is even as attractive as that option. So this whole trading stance seems a bit like posturing, which Manny basically called them out on in his recent comments.

[Atheose]

As SF put it in another thread, he'd go for pennies on the dollar, and the Sox are too smart a franchise to deal him for that in the middle of a pennant race.

Yeah, this is the same sort of thing we had several years ago; we'd like to get rid of him but we won't get equal value in return and we can't afford to lose his bat. Can you imagine Ortiz getting pitched around without Manny batting behind him? Scandalous.

Here's a list of 2009 potential free agents:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/2009-mlb-free-a.html

At first glance Pat Burrel, Milton Bradley and Adam Dunn look like the only ones who could make up most of Manny's power, and Bradley hasn't been consistent with his production throughout his career. We could always trade for a player like Holliday, but do we want to give up the minor leaguers? This is going to be a tricky off-season.

I'd love for the Sox to pick up Manny's option, but it sounds like he'll throw a hissy fit if they do that rather than extend his contract.

[Atheose]

On second glance, Burrell hasn't been very consistent with his power either. I like Dunn as an option though.

[YF]

"Anyone who thinks the Red Sox can survive without Manny Ramirez or an equal bat is sadly deluded,"

I'm not quite sure about the accuracy of this statement, either in the short or long term.

It's hard for me not to look at this in some kind of broader perspective. We live in a society where the privileged, and star athletes in particular, always get a pass. We accept it until some line is crossed and we don't--some unspoken compact is broken. The guys who break that compact are villified.

[Atheose]

I'm not quite sure about the accuracy of this statement, either in the short or long term.

The problem is that when Manny goes Ortiz will struggle too because pitchers won't have to pitch to him. Drew isn't likely to consistently produce in the long-term and Lowell is going to slowly regress; granted Manny has been regressing but his numbers, despite being career lows, are still some of the best in the league. We could "survive" I suppose, but it would be extremely difficult.

[Atheose]

Wow, I feel like Joe Morgan; I've mentioned "consistency" in each of my last 3 posts. Shoot me now.

[Paul SF]

Reading through the reax this morning, I am definitely more inclined to agree with SG, Joy of Sox and Chad Finn than Tony Mazz, Steve Buckley and Dan Shaughnessy.

But this isn't really a matter of who I rationally agree with. I'm just tired of it all. That may not be Manny's fault (though some of it definitely is. I mean, one thing the defenders don't mention is the obvious disgust the front office and his teammates were quoted as having. That's a first, and it seems to indicate a lot). It just is. Still gonna root for the booger though.

[YF]

Ath: The "protection" argument, I think, has been demonstated as a fallacy by various sabermetric thinkers, including Bill James. The prejudice against Drew seems unjustified to me.

Yankee fans don't need to look back too far in history to realize that a solid order producting top to bottom can be extremely effective, even if it's missing a superstar masher in the middle.

[Atheose]

The prejudice against Drew seems unjustified to me.

I don't think I was being unfair to Drew; I've always been a defender of him, and just feel that at 32 his offensive plateau is about to end. I have no stats to back that up, I just don't see him continuing to do well for very long.

[Nick-YF]

If Manny is traded, I'm guessing the Sox get a prospect package and maybe a middle-reliever who can help the pen now. The offensive drop felt in left field would be pretty significant, but not fatal, given the team's depth and the assumed improvement on defense and run prevention (again, a bullpen arm could help a lot), so maybe they could survive.

But I don't think a deal is happening, but potentially it will.

[Paul SF]

a solid order producting top to bottom can be extremely effective, even if it's missing a superstar masher in the middle.

The Sox do not currently have this, and pulling together the pieces to make one, even for next season, would likely be more difficult -- and potentially more costly -- than ponying up for a hitter of Manny's caliber, or Manny himself.

[A YF]

By trading him the Sox can certainly get more than the two picks they'd get if he left as a free agent. Beltran, for instance. The Dodgers could offer a nice package of prospects. The D'backs too.

And the money for an extension is no object - every team in baseball can afford Manny if they choose. Just watch the market this off-season.

[Atheose]

Yankee fans don't need to look back too far in history to realize that a solid order producting top to bottom can be extremely effective, even if it's missing a superstar masher in the middle.

The problem is that having Manny in the lineup makes up for other black holes, specifically 'Tek, Lugo and our center fielder.

[A YF]

Catcher and shortstop should be much bigger worries for the Sox going forward. An decent OF bat with poor defense is much more readily available, maybe even in the system (Carter, Lars).

The offensive drop felt in left field would be pretty significant, but not fatal, given the team's depth and the assumed improvement on defense and run prevention (again, a bullpen arm could help a lot), so maybe they could survive.

Exactly. Which SF here wouldn't take Matt Kemp and Jonathan Broxton?

[Awfulperson YF]

me

[Atheose]

Matt Kemp is going to be a superstar in a year or two; I'm huge on him. Don't know much about Broxton, though a quick glance at Baseball-Reference has me intrigued.

[Nick-YF]

What leverage do the Sox have in trade negotiations? They have an outfielder who, whether true or not, has complained of knee problems and has been difficult with the front office. Why would this yield anyone who was going to help the Sox now? My guess is that the Sox are more likely to get Ramon Castro than Carlos Beltran from the Mets.

[IronHorse (yf)]

"the only guy who gets up at 10 o'clock in the morning every day is Manny, to get set".

I'm sorry - is this supposed to be incredibly impressive?

As for the fatigue with Manny and the lines that star athletes sometimes cross, I'm sorry if I am a bit cynical, but I think if Manny weren't on the decline-side of his career, SFs and the Sox front office would not feel so fatigued, and 9 times out of 10, the only line that really gets crossed with such misfit stars is that their performance inevtiably drops late in tehir careers.

If Manny were having an MVP season in '08, I don't think this post goes up. I'm sorry Paul - that's just my view of watching years of Manny's antics slide. When you say that you would continue to defend him "if it was worth doing", the only calculus by which I understand that worthiness to be measured is on-field performance.

The Sox and their fans have been thrilled to have Manny on the team for almost a decade of his other-wordly offensive production. I think he has done nothing this year out of the ordinary (for him that is) other than have career lows in many offensive categories. Suddenly people are tired of defending him and the front office feels some kind of line has been crossed that was somehow not crossed with the "white devil" comment and the years of infantile behavior.

I feel like Captain Renault has just burst into Rick's Cafe to exclaim "I'm shocked, shocked to learn there is gambling going on in here!", just before the maitre'd hands him his winnings from the night. In Sox land, those winnings are two WC rings, and I think if people felt he was the best shot at a 3rd, the Manny-defense would be as strong as ever.

And to put A-Rod in the category of Barry "law-breaking get-me-my-personal-E-Z-chair-and-two-adjacent-lockers" Bonds or even physically-abusive-to-a-senior-citizen, sometimes-dog-it-on-the-field, always-admire-your-shot Manny is silly.

[dw (sf)]

I still think Crisp + Manny for Beltran is a good deal for both sides. Playing Beltran in left and Els in center. With Moss as a 4th. Although, that's no right handed bat off the bench (Bobby where are you?). That really fills some needs for both teams. (the "need" to get Manny somewhere else, and in part replace his production - the need of the mets for a LF and a CF replacement with the trade). If you look at their whole game, would Beltran's run prevention make up for his lower OPS - and call it even in the offensive department?

[Atheose]

They have an outfielder who, whether true or not, has complained of knee problems and has been difficult with the front office.

Don't forget the most expensive outfielder in the majors!

[A YF]

To be fair, they've been saying that about Kemp for at least two years now. He might never pan out, but he's well worth that risk.

I'm not sure if the Dodgers would give up both, but their system is so deep, they surely have another bullpen arm. If I was advising the Sox front office, I'd suggest a kid named Scott Proctor.

[Nick-YF]

"I'm sorry if I am a bit cynical, but I think if Manny weren't on the decline-side of his career, SFs and the Sox front office would not feel so fatigued, and 9 times out of 10, the only line that really gets crossed with such misfit stars is that their performance inevtiably drops late in tehir careers."

Brilliant, IH!

[Atheose]

but I think if Manny weren't on the decline-side of his career, SFs and the Sox front office would not feel so fatigued

I agree 100%, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think I'm on record as having said that Manny could be decapitating Quincy hookers for all I care as long as he's OPS+'ing 140.

[Atheose]

To be fair, they've been saying that about Kemp for at least two years now. He might never pan out, but he's well worth that risk.

I agree, he's not a 100% sure-thing but I believe he'll do well. And he did OPS+ 125 last season, with a BA of .342. This is the first full season he's had as a Dodger, so we'll get more accurate data from here on out.

[Nick-YF]

"I still think Crisp + Manny for Beltran is a good deal for both sides."

It's an interesting deal, but it seems to me the Mets would be doing a lot of running in place with this deal. The total return (the significant offensive upgrade in left, the offensive downgrade in center, the minor defensive upgrade in center, the tragic defensive downgrade in left) doesn't seem like a definite upgrade. Add the fact that Beltran's contract going forward is actually good for someone of his skillset (he is very underrated in NYC, I believe), and Manny's many injury issues and I don't see why the Mets do this.

[Nick-YF]

"I think I'm on record as having said that Manny could be decapitating Quincy hookers for all I care as long as he's OPS+'ing 140."

I think I heard this line from Mitt Romney in one of the primary debates. Get your own material, Ath!

[Atheose]

Wait, really Nick? I swear I didn't steal it from him if that's true!

[A YF]

"What leverage do the Sox have in trade negotiations?"

Well, he's hitting .302/.400/.531 - there are few hitters, if any, available at those rates. And it's a short commitment or a short extension. Plus, he'll put butts in the seats, especially for the Dodgers.

[A YF]

"And to put..."

I was going to bring this up, but I let it pass :)

[IronHorse (yf)]

Atheose, you have been clear on that point and I totally believe your sincerity on that. What I am objecting to, whether from sfs, the Boston sports media, or the Sox front office is any pretense that NOW Manny has done something behavior-wise that is somehow worse than everything before it and so this is somehow the straw that broke the camel's back and he must go. The only reason he goes, if he does go, is that his present and expected future performance on the field is worse than it has been and so, having gotten the best performance years out of him while ignoring all behavioral issues both on and off the field, they want him out. To portray it as having anything at all to do with standards of decency or behavior that the team supposedly has and that he has supposedly crossed simply doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.

[Atheose]

Plus, he'll put butts in the seats, especially for the Dodgers.

The Dodgers have the 3rd highest attendance per game this year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

""I still think Crisp + Manny for Beltran is a good deal for both sides."

In theory, but I don't see why the Sox would take on Beltran's contract.

[dc]

"...just send me a letter, whatever..."

uh, i'll write the letter

"...Just like we'd root for Barry Bonds or Alex Rodriguez if they wound up in red and white...."

wow, bb and arod in the same class...uh, you probably didn't mean it that way paul, but in my book, arod and manny are far more likeable and "rootable", despite their kooky quirks, than barry ever was...by all accounts he is very unlikeable and i'd probably have to close my eyes and hold my nose to root for him...luckily, it would appear that neither of us will have to do that...

[Atheose]

What I am objecting to, whether from sfs, the Boston sports media, or the Sox front office is any pretense that NOW Manny has done something behavior-wise that is somehow worse than everything before it and so this is somehow the straw that broke the camel's back and he must go.

I agree, but think that it's more the media than the front office. Shaughnessy and company are the ones screaming for Manny's head; the only news we've gotten from the Front Office regarding the issue is hearsay from Lobel, and the fact that Theo has shopped Manny around.

The Front Office has always been somewhat annoyed by Manny's antics, and have always shopped him around before the trade deadline when Manny seems unhappy. The only difference this year is that the media is making a bigger deal about it. I've said several times that I don't really care about the Youk fight or shoving the secretary, and everyone on the team and in the FO have said that these are non-issues. The media is the one blowing everything out of proportion with regards to "OMG Manny must go!!!!!111oneoneone"

[A YF]

"The Dodgers have the 3rd highest *home* attendance per game this year."

Shocking! And they still have room to improve.

[dw (sf)]

"""I still think Crisp + Manny for Beltran is a good deal for both sides."

In theory, but I don't see why the Sox would take on Beltran's contract."

Because he's 31, plays a good defense, is used to the media frenzy, and is good at the plate. is 18.5 to much? I don't know, would have to do the math i suppose.

[Nick-YF]

For the record, Mitt Romney did not say that. He did mention decapitating hookers though, which is probably why he lost.

[krueg]

Manny DH'ing in the Bronx next year?

[A YF]

"I agree, but think that it's more the media than the front office. "

Nah, it's been that way for years now. I agree with IH - the team is being more vocal now than they've ever been. The waivers was one put up or shut up moment. But this MRI thing is something else entirely because it directly affected a game being played. And the final score of that game was 1-0.

[Nick-YF]

I don't think Paul was comparing A-Rod to either players in terms of their behavior. I just think he was making the case that no matter how unpopular a player seems to a certain fanbase, ultimately that fanbase comes around when he plays on their team. It's true, after all, that A-Rod is not very popular in Boston.

[A YF]

"is 18.5 too much?"

For his above average, but not excellent, offense it is, especially for four more years.

[IronHorse (yf)]

I am surprised to see the interest in Beltan here. At least from living in NY and seeing the guy covered daily, his performance in the clutch has not impressed and he has too often done inexplicable things like trying to bunt his way on with RISP, the game on the line, and much weaker hitters to follow him. In short, he never developed into the big threat he was brought in to be and people STILL reference his extraordinary performance in the playoffs years ago when he was with the Astros as proof that he has what it takes. He very well might, but it really hasn't showed itself in New York.

Atheose, on Manny I thought I had read from more Sox-informed people than I that the FO and even players had had enough and I read Paul's post - perhaps incorrectly - as saying he has gotten to the point of having had enough. These are the things to which I responded, but I get your point that much of the former may be more of a media creation.

[krueg]

I don't understand how anyone can begrudge the guy after all he has done for the Sox...yet, I also understand how his antics could get old. Hmmmm...this is a quandry. No way they trade him.

[A YF]

Again on the "media" -

The team sent him for an MRI after he asked out of a game. Then *they* released the results.
There is no confusion about the FO's intent. And it worked for Saturday and Sunday - two games where they needed him least.

This recent hubbub is boiling over from the FO.

[John - YF]

I will start by saying this...I like my baseball drama free. It's part of the reason Alex drives me nuts. While he has never become physical with a team employee, he has had similar issues to Manny during his time in NY (Contract issues, Madonna, his wife's shirt, HA!, Blonde Woman, I wake up at 6 am comments and so on) They are both magnets for controversy and they are also clearly each of our team's best players. To Alex's credit though he has never asked out of a game or done any 'Alex Being Alex' stuff. My real point is that both player's off the field drama has to grate on the overall attitude of the team. The problem is in and Manny's case I believe the thing that pushes people/teammates over the edge is the on the field antics, in addition to the off the field stuff. Manny is Being Manny from too many different angles. Alex, while equally drama filled, has never brought said drama onto the field. (With the exception of the "Slappy McBluelips" Play, which was an attempt at winning, not tomfoolery) Julio Lugo or LFRS as SF calls him, can say whatever he'd like Manny's antics are not good for that team. He's a distraction to an extremely professional team. I think that became evident when he and Youk went at it. I am not in the clubhouse and I am certainly not a Sox fan, but it appears that Manny's time has come to move on. The core of this Sox team is nothing like Manny, those players are gone (Damon, Millar, etc...) These current Sox are very business like, a la the Yankees of the 90's. Drew, Lowell, Youk, Varitek, etc...

Now, I don't think the Sox are better on the field without Manny. I also think they can probably still win with his antics, but just looking at Francona last night he looks like the drama is finally taking it's toll.

[Nick-YF]

Beltran's first year with the Mets, which was affected by injury, was admittedly a disappointment. But he's been a top 5 centerfielder for the Mets since then. In 2006, he was tied with Sizemore as the best centerfielder in baseball. The year after, he was in the top 4, and this year he's in the top 4. He does everything well, but, perhaps, he doesn't do anything great, which, I believe makes him underrated. In any case, given what centerfielders get on the open market these days (Tori Hunter, Andruw Jones, Juan Pierre, Johnny Damon), I think his is a pretty decent contract. I'm confident he won't be traded for Manny and his hurting (or unhurting) knee.

[dc]

"...It's true, after all, that A-Rod is not very popular in Boston...."

precisely because he jilted them and wound up on the #1 rival, nick....remember all the hub-bub?

[Nick-YF]

"precisely because he jilted them and wound up on the #1 rival, nick....remember all the hub-bub?"

that certainly is one, if not the major, reason. Also he's played some games against them since...

The point was that I don't think Paul was equating his behavior with Bonds are Manny.

[A YF]

John -

Let's be perfectly, 100% clear: A-Rod's case is entirely the media. He really does sell newspapers. "Blond woman" is a perfect example. When's the last time you heard about a player with a stripper on the road via the backpage?

Meanwhile, the Ha! I found hilarious. The Arroyo slap was wrong. But that's the only time, in his career, the guy hasn't played the game the right way. Now watch a SF here take that out of context. But I put much more weight into the fact that he would have been the greatest shortstop that ever lived, then he moved to 3B for an inferior one.

As for a comparison with Manny, I have never heard of A-Rod that:

a) He loafs in the field
b) He loafs running the bases
c) He asks out of games
d) He reports mysterious injuries right before gametime
e) He slapped a teammate
f) He assaulted a team employee (for tix nonetheless)

Let's drop the BS comparisons...

"precisely because he jilted them and wound up on the #1 rival, nick....remember all the hub-bub?"

Exactly. Some will mention Arroyo, but that's exceedingly minor. I remember Pedroia throwing an elbow to Cano, and Lowell running him over, and they'll soon be forgotten - as they should be.

[John - YF]

"To Alex's credit though he has never asked out of a game or done any 'Alex Being Alex' stuff."

"The problem is in and Manny's case I believe the thing that pushes people/teammates over the edge is the on the field antics, in addition to the off the field stuff."

I thought I was fairly clear.

[Brad]

he didn't "jilt" them at all - the Player's Union did.

[Nick-YF]

right, Brad, but the fans don't necessarily see it that way. People are not always the most informed.

By the way, per Sean McAdam, Manny will waive his no-trade clause if the team he's traded to agrees to decline his option at the end of the year. He's a two-month rental then. Trade accordingly. Beltran is not coming through that door.

[A YF]

"I thought I was fairly clear."

Not enough. Sorry!

"he didn't "jilt" them at all - the Player's Union did.

To be clear, the Sox FO failed to seal the deal too. But do you really think most SFs want to understand the distinction?

[A YF]

"Beltran is not coming through that door."

But Matt LaPorta?

The Sox can get a decent package, even for a rental.

[Yankee Fan In Boston]

anon: pedroia has been known to slap as well.

http://www.waswatching.com/archives/SlappySox.jpg

i defended rodriguez (although i still say he should have just plowed over arroyo) and i will defend pedroia on his play. you want to bust up the play, but the methods used in either case could have been better.

[IronHorse (yf)]

Perhaps Manny's best quote from yesterday, "I don't care where I play. I could even play in Iraq if need be", opens the trade possibilities much much further than previous thought. Manny Ramirez for Moqtada al-Sadr would seem a win-win for all concerned.

[Dan]

The "Jilting" and subsequent move to the Yanks might have been the start of it, but I thought the opt-out announcement one inning before the Red sox wrapped up 2007 went a long way towards cementing his reputation with the sox fans.

[dc]

"...he didn't "jilt" them at all..."

yeah, i know the technicality that the players union wouldn't approve the deal, but that didn't spare arod from villian status by going to a rival team...maybe the real villian was the front office asking him to take a pay cut that ultimately killed the deal...my only point, since i was unclear is that comparing arod's kookiness to barry, with his much more despicable flaws was a big stretch...

[Nick-YF]

"Moqtada being Moqtada" has a nice ring to it. I say go for it!

[dc]

"...cementing his reputation with the sox fans. ..."

the cement was already poured dan...the opt out announcement merely helped harden it

[YF]

How 'bout this: Manny for Gardner? Kid's a gamer, and Manny's a natch in NYC.

Get to it Cash and Theo!

[A YF]

Yeah, Dan, lots of SFs were ambivalent about A-Rod before the 2007 series.

[IronHorse (yf)]

I like it Nick. Let's start printing shirts.

[Atheose]

"Beltran being Beltran" is okay, but I really like "Vladdy being Vladdy." Anyone else? Anyone?

Shucks.

[Dan]

Saltalamacchia being Saltalamacchia.

catchy.

[Atheose]

Shorten it to Salty being Salty and you're on to something Dan!

[Nick-YF]

Saltalamacchia is the longest name in mlb history. Right?

[LocklandSF]

Manny isn't going anywhere. This, like all his other crap in the past, will blow over.

I like Manny a lot, I find him extremely entertaining. I wish he didn't bring all this baggage, but I'm at peace with.

Also, let's put to bed the lie about him taking lots of days off, it's simply not true.

I'm not defending his actions, I don't like the way he behaves, it's totally inappropriate.

[John - YF]

f) He assaulted a team employee (for tix nonetheless)

"While he has never become physical with a team employee, he has had similar issues to Manny during his time in NY." - Me

a) He loafs in the field
b) He loafs running the bases
c) He asks out of games
d) He reports mysterious injuries right before gametime

"To Alex's credit though he has never asked out of a game or done any 'Alex Being Alex' stuff." - Me

"Alex, while equally drama filled, has never brought said drama onto the field." - Me

Let's drop the BS comparisons...

A completely unecessary and off base comment. If you would have read the comment in full you would have seen everything I JUST pointed out. I go back to my statements from last night, you make this site unenjoyable to me and that's sad considering I'm a moderator. I have tried every angle with you and STILL you take things out of context for the simple purpose of been a flame thrower. You don't need to agree with me, I am not that arrogant, but at least when you are trying to prove me wrong use facts and read what I wrote, that's all.

Sorry Mods. I just hate being baited.

[John - YF]

According to MLB trade rumors the Yankees contacted the Rangers regarding Salty and Laird but talks went nowhere. But they are saying both are being shopped. I would imagine this has to do with the emergence of Chris Davis and the Rangers realizing that Salty may be a 1Bman after all rather than a C.

[Paul SF]

is any pretense that NOW Manny has done something behavior-wise that is somehow worse than everything before it and so this is somehow the straw that broke the camel's back and he must go.

For the record, I don't make either of these points in my post. It's a cumulative effect, not that the most recent troubles are in any way worse than the ones before it. Is it because his production is down? Maybe so. Perhaps it's easier to take a lot of crap from a player when his production makes that crap worth it. Manny's production isn't what it used to be, and that does change the formula.

However, it's wron to say that Manny's antics only now have worn on the nerves of fans and the front office, and to tie that to production only. Manny's been booed at Fenway before, and the FO has tried to trade and/or release him before, both when he was slamming 40 homers a year. That doesn't jive with the "It's only a problem because his numbers aren't as good" argument.

[Nick-YF]

Salty is an interesting player that could be a good fit for the Yanks. IPK and another prospect for him?

[A YF]

"Also, let's put to bed the lie about him taking lots of days off, it's simply not true"

Why didn't he play on Friday?

John - I also said A-Rod's off-field antics *are* a media creation. You didn't seem too concerned about responding to that "context". The tone of your comment was different. I responded to the tone - just as you have.

Meanwhile, I already offered an apology to you above. Funny but I don't expect the same.

[John - YF]

Not enough. Sorry!

There you go. Now we have both offered what you call an "apology."

"Salty is an interesting player that could be a good fit for the Yanks."

I agree Nick. He could help spell Molina through the end of the season, then next year be the everyday 1Bman when Posada comes back. Catchers are funny creatures (See Jesus Montero, Chris Iannetta, JD Closser) some develop slower than others, some grow too much to be catchers. I think the Rangers were lucky to get more than just Salty from the Braves in that deal.

[Paul SF]

As I recall, the Rangers wanted a mint from the Sox just for Gerald Laird. I can't imagine what they'd want for Saltalamacchia.

[John - YF]

MLB Trade Rumors said they want a ML ready arm.

[A YF]

Sure, John, but let's look at the two instances shall we? I called the *comparison* BS, especially because you weren't the only one making it.

By contrast you called *me* names and made it personal.

Somehow I think I should be more offended.... If I were to follow the "mature" path of many moderators here, you'd be on ignore mode from now on.

Next time, how about not making it personal? I didn't.

[Nick-YF]

then Carl Pavano it will be!

[Paul SF]

you'd be on ignore mode from now on.

Damn, John. How'd you pull that one off? Can you teach me how to get on ignore mode, too?

[Dan]

"Damn, John. How'd you pull that one off? Can you teach me how to get on ignore mode, too?"

I'll have what he's having.

[John - YF]

"By contrast you called *me* names and made it personal."

Please for my own sanity show me where I called you names? I am 33, not 5. I do no such thing. I done with you, as I should have been 20 minutes ago. I let you bait me.

Paul, my computer has had him on ignore for quite some time. I will email you the necessary formula. Unfortunately it's not fool proof.

[John - YF]

Nick, tell Cash to use the same sales pitch his agent did when we signed him a few years back. He's a horse, he's a young live arm...and so on. We also have Igawa if Pavano alone will not land us Salty.

[Atheose]

Damn, John. How'd you pull that one off? Can you teach me how to get on ignore mode, too?

You end up weeding them out of your vision, like pop-up ads! Sort of like a mental callus.

[John - YF]

I read your entire post where did I do this "By contrast you called *me* names." Again you have yet to show me where I called you names.

It is personal A, there's no way around that. You piss a lot of regulars off and a lot of Mods off, something no other regular does. You can play the martyr all you'd like, you know what you do and so does everyone else around here.

[Brad]

John - can you jump over and approve the fantasy stuff so I can get it done before going fishing today?
Thanks, man.

[attackgerbil]

Regrettably I am having to go into edit mode again today. If you have questions, email me directly.

[John - YF]

Will do Brad, my apologies.

To all,
I am sorry for engaging him. I took the bait and I look weak for doing so. I apologize to Paul for upsetting the flow of his post.

John

[rootbeerfloat]

Kind of changing the subject a little but is anyone else as nauseous as I am at the prospect of another series against the Angels starting tonight? I was blessedly off camping the entire weekend so I missed everything (Manny drama and actual baseball) except the last 4 innings of last night's game.

[Nick-YF]

*Slams head against wall*

I once ended up at a party where all the people were people who didn't like me. They were discussing soap or some such thing. I am interested in soap. I opined. They then made fun of me. I was hurt. My feelings were really hurt. I left the party and went to another one where people liked me and responded positively about my insights into soap (the good ones smell the best, for instance). I was happy at that party and never returned to the other party.

[Brad]

RBF -

Not me. I think they keep the ball rolling tonight. Well, I hope they do anyhow.ha.
Plus, I've taken the "I don't really care as long as Manny is still on the Red Sox" attitude for the the rest of this year.
I'd rather lose without him than have a real interest in winning with him.
But, that shouldn't come as surprise to anyone here.

[Atheose]

I think that's a good philosophy to have Nick, and one that is common sense for most people. Or at least should be.

[Nick-YF]

ok, now back to baseball. I am psyched that the Sox are playing the Angels tonight. But I worry that the Yanks are in for a letdown against the O's.

[Brad]

Excellent, Nick.

[Atheose]

RBF, I'm actually happy to play the Angels tonight but only because it's at Fenway. I think we'll get a good amount of payback in tonight, as well as knock those bloody LA'ers down a peg or two.

[dw (sf)]

pitching matchup tonight looks to favor the sox. Interesting match-up in Baltimore - that Guthrie kid is good.

TB is in toronto - should be favorable for Toronto as well.

[rootbeerfloat]

Back to the Manny thing, I do admit to a bit of Manny fatigue. In the past, I've had quite a soft spot for him. My 2004 world series jersey has his number on it and my boys have named two fish and a chicken after him. But yeah, I get a little tired of his antics and I think the Sox could pull it off without him. I don't think he'll get traded before tomorrow but if he doesn't come back next year, I think we can still field a championship team.

Again with the tangents, but when I flipped over to mlb.com hunting for trade rumors there was a big picture of Rickey Henderson over an article about the Hall of Fame ballot. This brought a ridiculous grin to my face - that guys was a ton of fun to watch.