A Tale of Two Teams

On a Saturday family field trip out to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, we made a stop at a local Greek food shop. Clearly, for the moment, Yankees territory. Their cross-town rivals were represented - city pride still exists. And clearly, as you can see after the jump, the Mets are #2.  Pun intended.

Comments

[Nick-YF]

This has to be the worst season ever for a Mets fan. Right?

[walein]

Probably the worst season from front to back. However, the collapse of 2007 was extraordinary and it's amazing that our dad survived it post his quadruple bi-pass surgery. Then again, the fact that he was recovering from the surgery at that time and on pain meds might have saved him from feeling anything acutely.

[Lar]

What's out in Bay Ridge? I've lived there for 15 or so years, so I'm curious! =)

[Hudson]

YFs will howl, but this is a smartly-argued article:

http://tinyurl.com/yg2e739

The way I deal with people who try suggest that the Yankee and Red Sox payrolls are both high is this: I suggest they lend me $214, but I only have to pay them back $122.

If they'll take that deal, and then agree that the missing $92 is no big deal, then I'll readily concede that there is no effective difference between the Boston and New York payrolls.

[Nick-YF]

I won't howl. I'll just zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. And I'll continue to bask in the post world series glow.

Seriously, obviously the Yanks have a big financial advantage. We get it. I get it. I'm still enjoying this. Sorry.

[sam-YF]

Here is another equally well written article about the infeasibility of instituting a salary cap in baseball. It really does amaze me how almost every single non-yankee fan Ive come across since we've won has mentioned money. Like Nick says, we get it but we still are basking in our win and it really doesnt detract from the victory at all.

Here's that article:

http://tinyurl.com/ye75ffr

[FenSheaParkway]

I've been down Bay Ridge ways a bunch and it always seemed to be a Yankee-leaning territory even in more neutral years. This year was anything but neutral with respect to the fates of the two NYC teams.

Though I'd argue that the Mets' 2009 didn't even come close to unseating 1993 as the gold standard for horrible Mets seasons. For me, 2009 was more of a "What If?" year than a full-blown disaster. At the very least, it didn't include any fans or members of the press being injured by bleach or M-80s.

[I'mBillMcNeal]

Hudson, the salary cap argument isn't going anywhere for awhile. It isn't simple.
A big arguement against it is that the Yanks spent close to $2B in payroll between WS wins, illustrating that deep pockets don't guarantee success.
I do believe baseball needs a cap. But there are a bajillion questions about how it would work, and the two easiest to answer probably are 1. What's the ceiling? and 2. What's the floor?
I heard an interesting stat on Friday, although I cannot remember it exactly: The Yanks, who have a lot of revenue sources and a lot of income, spent something like 55-60 percent of revenue on payroll. The Red Sox, who have a lot of revenue sources and income but less than the Yanks, spent (I think) 42 percent of revenue on payroll.
Just something to chew on.
Something else to chew on: Growing up in Iowa, we would go to KC a lot to see games. This was in the late 70s and 80s. The Royals were ALWAYS good and the park often was full. KC is a good baseball town ... when the team wins. Ownership has changed, and there has been reason to believe the new folks (Wal-Mart money, I think) pocket lux tax money.

I again will advocate for a good salary cap debate, but sometime in January.

[I'mBillMcNeal]

Here's another consideration: How much does the Yankees willingness to pay enormo contracts drive up their own team payroll? i.e., Are the Yankees often bidding against themselves?

[Jeff Bonder]

You want to talk payroll? Okay, someone here explain to me why the Sox payroll DECREASED by $23 million from 2007 to 2009. Did their profits decrease by $23 million? Where else did that money go?

That's not even counting the $51.11 million they bid on Dice-K.

So somehow the Sox were able to support at least $194 million on players alone in 2007? And now they're only able to support $120 million? Where's all that extra money going? The Jimmy Fund?

We know the Sox make at least $150 million on ticket sales alone. Where is all the extra money going? Seems like if you're worried about payrolls, the first argument you have is with your ownership. After all they're the ones who shortchanged your roster this year too. Why?

[AndrewYF]

Agreed, IBM.

Just because the Red Sox choose not to take full advantage of their humongous revenue streams in the name of 'efficiency' or what have you, doesn't mean the Yankees are in any way wrong, at fault, or foolish for taking full advantage of theirs. No one can tell me the Red Sox couldn't easily, EASILY, have signed Sabathia and Teixeira this offseason. But they decided to be cute and efficient, and hey, it worked in that they fulfilled their goal of 95 wins, and good for them, I just hope Red Sox fans are as satisfied as their front office.

I'm guessing they're not.

Please stop blaming the Yankees for the Red Sox' failure. It's so, so, so tired. And kind of sad.

[dc]

yeah, i'd just as soon not talk about it, but here i am...not sure how valid that percent of revenue spent data is IBM because i don't think the owners open the books...but if true, it supports the point i was trying to make the other day...some owners just want to get rich, or have other priorities...the yankee owners want to win as their top priority, and seem to realize that winning will make them rich in the process...that, and it's a lot easier than grasping at excuses for losing...could the sox have spent some of that % difference to land tex?...or, were they spending that money on other interests?...tex may have been the difference-maker between the yanks and sox this year...and, good luck trying to shove the salary cap proposal down the throat of the players union...i'm not saying that some system of forcing teams to use their share of the tax and revenue sharing the way it was intended, and a cap, is not a good idea, i just don't see it flying far...

"...Please stop blaming the Yankees for the Red Sox' failure...."
thing is, it's not just sox fans andrew, it's every non-yankee fan...it demonstrates the media's power over how we should think...i was even confronted by a non-baseball fan, who doesn't give a hoot about baseball, who commented: "so, i see your yankees won...but only because they spent all that money"...unreal, and kind of scary...

[IronHorse (YF)]

I for one like the post SF - thanks for the imagery. The Mets sign is - I see - precariously perched above the bathroom door - just a slipped piece of tape and gust of wind from being underfoot of some random person with bad aim using a public urinal. Most appropriate.

As for the other issue, it seems sour grapes cost nothing these days, eh Hudson?

[dc]

payroll: $200m
new stadium: $1.5b [or whatever]
winning: priceless
sour grapes: worthless

[Jeff Bonder]

"But they decided to be cute and efficient, and hey, it worked in that they fulfilled their goal of 95 wins, and good for them, I just hope Red Sox fans are as satisfied as their front office."

Exactly and great points. The Sox got 95 wins from $121 million in payroll in 2009. They got 95 wins from $133 million in payroll in 2008. And they got 96 wins from $143 million in payroll in 2007.

Super, they're being more efficient with their dollars. That's the sign of a well-run business. But isn't the point of baseball to win? What good are more dollars if they're not being used to support winning?

The Sox have the money (not seeing the books, we know it's at least $150 million in ticket sales alone). Instead of questioning how the Yankees spend their money, why aren't SFs asking questions about how their team doesn't spend theirs?

[Lar]

IBM - I read that same stat.

And having the Yanks win every once in awhile is obviously good for baseball - just look at the ratings (even just the first 5 games). At some point there's fatigue, of course, but the Yanks haven't really proven that money, by itself, wins by default, though it does help. But hey, they didn't even make the playoffs last year! And Red Sox didn't make the playoffs in 2006.

In the end, it's all how you play.

Also, the draft is wholly based on how much you suck the previous year. I know you can pick up gems later in rounds, and there are many instances of it, but you can't blame the Yanks for having a relatively low upside farm - they won't be high enough to draft "sure-fire" players like ARod or Jeter for actually trying to compete..

[Lar]

I was going home to Bay Ridge that night after some celebration, and even at 2-3am it was crazy, with cars honking and people getting hugs/high fives on the street. Pretty amazing for Brooklyn!

[Lar]

Also, since after 2000, 8 different teams won it in 9 years.

[walein]

Salary cap and the Yankees spending too much money is an Owners plow and a dumb media tag-a-long.
I remember the Yankees and Sox getting bashed when Colorado made there post season charge and every few years when the Florida Marlins make their charge. It ends up being the same thing: Ha ha, Yanks and Sox spent soo much money but look what it got them.
The Angels spending 10s of millions on Gary Matthews Jr. was dumb; and most everyone seemed to know that except the Angels.
The fact that the Yankees and Sox and other big spending teams can "cover up" some of their mistakes is the result of their wealth but also how they manage their budgets.
The NFL salary cap is terrible and the NBA salary cap is awful.

[krueg]

A salary cap in baseball wouldn't change a thing...

[sf rod]

you know, sometimes i go into a casino and root for the house to win. it allows me to bask in the glow often.

but, yeah, congrats to our yf brethren. enjoy.

[Nick-YF]

sf rod, I got the impression from you that the yanks didn't stand much of a chance going into the postseason with cc (awful in the fall) and a-rod (the ultimate choke artist) certain to way us down. No doubt the money pushed them to greatness.

[Nick-YF]

way=weigh. i'm losing my english here.

[dc]

so after thinking about it for awhile, i came to a conclusion...the yankees make a lot of money, and the yankees spend a lot of money...uh, what was the point again?

[i'm starting to see the humor in this now]

"...No doubt the money pushed them to greatness. ..."
no nick, it was kate hudson...and those stinkin' umpires...

[AndrewYF]

I'm certain that sf rod, if he is at all interested in intellectual honesty, considers the 2007 Red Sox team in the same way, given that their payroll was $90 million more than that of the lowly Rockies team.

[dc]

;)

[krueg]

Rod is bitter like all the haters...not rational, bitter.

Who cares what he thinks? Isn't just knowing how miserable he and the rest are heartwarming? :)

[dc]

;)

normally i wouldn't wish for anybody to be miserable krueg, but ok, in this case i'll make an exception, but only for the fans who choose to be smarta$$e$...the wise sox fans i know are keeping a very low profile, and offering only cordial, if a bit insincere, congratulations...silence is far more powerful than a backlash of silly charges about money, the crappy new homer-happy half-empty taxpayer-subsidized stadium, the 04 choke, jeter sucks, he really does, blah, blah...the noise just gives us something more to have fun with...i wasn't going to gloat, and i still don't think i am [haven't worn yankee clothing in weeks], but i'm getting close...but let me say that the sox gang here, with a few exceptions, has shown remarkable restraint by allowing us to soak it in for awhile...and i think that's great of them...classy

[Nick-YF]

"[haven't worn yankee clothing in weeks],"

I misread this without the word "yankee" and thought 'wow, that's one way to celebrate!'

[krueg]

I look at it this way...when you are on top, there is no reason to gloat. The haters can say what they want but it doesn't change a thing. It doesn't make us any less stoked about our team and #27 so who cares?

I will not wear my Championship hat and tee out. I bought them just to have them, not to rub anything in anyones face. Just wearing my Yankee hat out and seeing the looks warms my heart! I know people hate us and that's half the fun of being a YF, their misery brings me joy. Immeasureable joy. :)

When the Sox won their 2 titles, I was bummed but gave wholehearted congratulations to my SF friends, how can you do anything else when a team wins it all?

In closing, fuck 'em. :)

[krueg]

I'm seeing articles on the Yankees going after Lackey...I'm not really into that idea.

[krueg]

Jeter and Tex won Gold Gloves! Nice!

[Lar]

Next year's starting pitching FAs look pretty good. Lackey I would be okay with, but if the Yanks were to sign him, it'll probably be a year or two too long.

GG link here:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4642325

[sam-YF]

If the yankees are gonna sign one of the big name free agents this offseason, Id vote for Lackey. Pitching wins championships and there is no reason not to continue to strengthen it at the right cost. This would also allow some wiggle room with Joba and Hughes.

[Lar]

Well, next year's FA:

Beckett, Halladay, Cliff Lee.

[krueg]

I love Carl Crawford next year...bring it.

[sam-YF]

Beckett Halladay or lee can replace Pettitte next year when he retires. (hopefully not Beckett)

[dc]

"...Jeter and Tex won Gold Gloves! Nice!..."

really?...nobody will have a problem with tex, but the last time jeter won it, oh boy....all kinds of crap about, well, like i said, he sucks, and the award is bogus...i guess "range" whatever the 'f' that means isn't included in the gg criteria...the gg is a "joke", blah, blah...except when "your" player wins it, then it's cool...did i mention that jeter won the roberto clemente and hank aaron awards?...'f' the mvp, he's collecting other hardware...jeter haters have spent years trying to poke holes in his game, all because he wasn't on their team...loving it...

"...In closing, fuck 'em. :)..."
amen brother

[sf rod]

come now boys. i was sincere in my congratulatory sentiments. i'm happy for the yf's from this site.

"in closing, fuck 'em. :)"

wow, you guy's have even adopted microsofts buisness motto. ;)

[dc]

now i'm talking to myself: let it go, let it go, let it go...not fair to shoot fish in a barrel....

[krueg]

Time to ignore dc...we've said our piece.